I must say you certainly stand by your beliefs. I admire that you stood your ground. Is there quite a bit of hostility from ex or am I just reading that into it? It sounds like essentially a gripe fest with a crabby voice. I can tell that masculine book did you all sorts of good. You handled her swing of emotions and hopefully it will pay dividends. If not, you didn't compromise anything.
I don't know if I'd take the fact that she's "giving" you more time with your son as a sign that she wants you tied up. It could mean that she wants more free time for herself and you are the easy solution for babysitter.
Gabe, I'm not sure in any of that you validated anything. Sounded more like you defended yourself and didn't indicate that you heard what she was trying to say. Did you at least indicated you know where she is coming from? I primarily want to suggest that you arrange a neutral ground and suggest to your ex that you discuss rationally some of these child rearing issues. Maybe get some of the big things out of the way, such as religion. Obviously when he is with you and you are going to church he'll have to come along, but present your points in a calm and rational way, listen to her opinions and validate. You don't have to agree, but I suggest showing her that you are an improved conversationalist.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Yeah, I dropped the ball in terms of listening. She threw several boulder-sized accusations at me, and this distracted me from my basic listening skills. I've improved to the point of not escalating with her, but there may have been less need to defend if she could have heard me listening to her more.
W insisted that increased time for me and S5 was "not about me. Quit making it out that you're doing me favors. I miss S5 so much when he's not here." That last part made me think of one of the last posts regarding her having alone time to be lonely and think about her sitch more.
I see a lot of "boulder-throwing" on the part of your W. She is taking her own frustrations out on you. I agree with Wes a little on validation versus defending. But I have been where you are, when boulders start flying at you and you try to dodge them the best you can. I mean, when pebbles are thrown I can validate, but when I am surprised with a boulder I dont know what to do. I am terible at thinking on my feet.
Your W seems to be very pent up and bottling a lot of negative feelings inside her. Perhaps letting the venom out by being gentle and validating is in order. You can even engineer a talk where she lets loose and you validate your a$$ off? Just change the dynamic from the past month of so. Your current trajectory with your W seems inevitable but a little negative. Your GAL may not be sufficient and it even seems to be p'ing your W off? I dont know, what do you think?
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Ellie responded to me on another thread w/this. Very relevant words from a very wise lady:
Gabe - You want to know the key to unconditional love? It's about taking yourself out of the equation.
The best example of unconditional love is the love you have for your kids. If one of your kids does something bad, you don't stop loving them. You might set boundaries on their behavior, let them suffer the consequences of their behavior, you might be angry at them or worried for them - but you still love them and value them for the unique human beings they are.
The difficulty that arises in feeling unconditional love for our spouses, is trying to get past our own pain and need. "You left me, you hurt me, you aren't giving me the love I need" - all these very normal thoughts and emotions get in the way of unconditional love for our spouses. But once you reach a point of loving detachment - a point where you no longer take everything personally, and can begin to see your spouse more clearly without the fog of your own pain - you can begin to see your spouse through the eyes of unconditional love. They are a person, a person with qualities that you loved, and they are sadly taking a very bad path in their life that is ultimately going to lead them towards pain and unhappiness. Their clinical depression, or unresolved childhood issues, or substance addiction, or whatever the case may be, is messing up their life.
Unconditional love is not about being a doormat, letting yourself be taken advantage of, or accepting unacceptable behavior. It is about loving the sinner without loving the sin, about maintaining some empathy for the pain and confusion in your spouse's life, and it's about not REacting out of fear or pain.
Quote: Your W seems to be very pent up and bottling a lot of negative feelings inside her. Perhaps letting the venom out by being gentle and validating is in order.
Yes, I see this, too. It seems like we've done some R work lately in our convos this week, with W noting that she's not pursuing a new R, with her hearing that I was hurt by her locked judgmental stance toward me in the last 4 years of our R, w/ me noting that she deserved to be romanced, etc...
Last night, a bit more occured, when I noted that I was only responsible for 50% of our M problems. W replied, "Oh! Only 50 huh? (sarcastically)." To which I replied, "There are errors of comission and errors of omission. We each had our share." Seems like she still needs to get there - to owning her role. This likely won't happen til her self-esteem/identity stuff is sorted out. Regardless, giving her the floor to vent/disclose and proving myself a good listener is on my agenda for any future convo.
Its time to shift back from explaining defending myself to the unconditionally loving role that Ellie described. I agree that this current direction is negative, and is scaring or angering W. I've been heard and its time for a shift more fully to her needs.
Quote: Last night, a bit more occured, when I noted that I was only responsible for 50% of our M problems. W replied, "Oh! Only 50 huh? (sarcastically)." To which I replied, "There are errors of comission and errors of omission. We each had our share."
Did you chuck the DR book out the window? j/k. Hard not to point that stuff out, but you definitely shouldn't if you can help it. Maybe she will look at herself a bit and see her contribution, but I certainly wouldn't count on it or hold my breath waiting for her to take ownership (not unless you want to die). BTW, despite my thinking that my ex didn't have much deep seated anger for me, I noted that in an e-mail to a divorced "friend" that she lashed out at me for indicating that the dog was mine--even though I said it jokingly (her note to friend..."he loves me, bitch! That felt good!") So my message is that I think the anger and resentment is there....maybe we see varying amounts of the iceberg depending on the X's personality. Mine I think shows only the very tip. Hopefully yours shows you a lot of it.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Wes makes some good points. I have fallen off the DB bandwagon as well several times in the past. But you know what, the short-term consequences of such falls are quite bad with the WAW lashing out at me or drawing the D guns, but in the long run they do process what you say. So, you said what you said. Just get your PMA back up and keep moving. Let her process it. Deep down she knows it's true. I liked the errors of omission and comission business. R's are dynamic interactions of two people. Anybody who thinks one person just messed it all up is smokin' something bad....That said, you have been operating in the B grade level in the DBing course lately I know that you know it. Happens to the best of us. Now I can feel good when I fall off the DB wagon, knowing that it has happened to even Gabriel
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
I'm going to jump in here with a different perspective. Was this type of defensive, accusatory interaction common in the M? Could she still be in the negative mindset of feelings during the M? Is it time for Gabe to do something different?
I also confess to having no experience at this in my current standing. We do not argue, accuse, bring up blame about what happened in the M or accuse anyone of making assumptions. As I said, the M and the D do not exist. We simply have changed the living situation.
I suspect we would all try and defend ourselves against unfair or inaccurate assumptions and then question later if we approached the situation in the best manner. Perhaps this gives us all an opportunity to learn to better evaluate and react.
Yes I'm straying a bit from the DR method. But I think those of us post-D will be pioneering what works and what doesn't in this M afterlife.
Bruce, yes W has some unresolved feelings about the M, as she has unresolved feelings about her parents, and trauma that happened 15 yrs ago. I distinctly hear softening in her stance, even amidst her anger and venting. Thank you, Deida, for the ability to stay there with her. Not a perfect job, but better than before.
Last night, we had another R talk via telephone. This time we revisited her mistrust of me, and my latest jealousy about her posssibly pursuing a new R. We touched upon those in an okay convo, with W noting that she never felt like she was "enough" for me, and therefore she feared that I would hook up w/ someone else and leave her.
I reaffirmed my desire for only her at the time, and noted that she's still the most beautiful woman on the planet to me. W returned with her current view that I have tons of female students noting how attractive I am (I doubt it! Sounds like her own worry), to which I responded, "Just like before, I'm in charge of my actions, and I still love that woman I fell in love w/on the steps of.....(our 1st convo)." Big DB no-no traditionally, I know, but I felt that she needed to hear that I'm not about playing around. W did say, "Why don't you just move on?" but this sounded whinsome and not cold, uncaring. She also noted, "Right now, I just want respect from you."
Again, I distinctly feel that we are touching upon old hurts to clean up some of that unresolvedness of some of her concerns. I also think she's seeing my positives, and is a bit worried about that very thing she mentioned - me moving on. Finally, I think this is a test.
She's sitting tight and watching to see if I move on w/someone else. If I do, she was right about me. If I don't, she has to come to another conclusion. It is time for formal DBing again, no more R talks that she doesn't initiate, and tons of respect and love toward her.
What may be surprising to her is how I'm growing and improving thru this rather than withering into a sad pathetic excuse for a man.
GAL work: Got some pics of S5 and my NM pic! Wonderful memories! Worked out yesterday, expanded my circuit training, lifted heavier on free wts, and ran 3.5 miles. Feels good! Having lunch w/ a same-age MF from TN who is also pushing himself thru a 'rebirth' experience. Then I'm taking S5 to see "Charlie and the Chocolate Factory."
I think you are doing excellent. This is uncharted territory, but it seems that you have been having fairly calm, reassuring, non-threatening talks with your X. I don't think you should just continue on, but maybe you really have cleared away a few of the cobwebs that are hanging on for her. You know, left with just their own point of view our WAW/Xs will likely draw the worst conclusion. Ergo, the comment about all the other women you could have. I really think she probably needed to hear those things and she will have another viewpoint to consider.
Quote: She also noted, "Right now, I just want respect from you."
I sense this is at the heart of the matter for many of our XWs and I know it is for mine. The self-esteem issues are big. How are you going to give this? I mean...type it out. I want to see if there may be some kernel of wisdom that we all can glean. You've come a long way with highlighting her mothering skills and you've touched on her beauty on several occasions (which I'm sure she did like hearing since she is concerned about your younger students, etc), but since her professional life is so important I'd suggest looking at this area for other opportunities to boost her ego/show respect.
The only thing that comes to mind at the moment is the previous episode where she posted her work inappropriately. Is there an opportunity for you to say something like "I thought your paper was really impressive. I hope you know I was just following the rules when I took it down rather than being critical of it. It was good work." Or something of that ilk?
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I know that you know it. Happens to the best of us. Now I can feel good when I fall off the DB wagon, knowing that it has happened to even Gabriel 