Hi Yoyo...I tried to post to you on Friday, but our computers were screwed up, and I wasnt able to. I did save the post I typed up ...here it is.... I'm not sure how invaluable my experience is, as I'm kinda struggling myself right now , ugh, as I'll post in a bit...but, I can share a few tidbits with you...
Quote: My H has been saying that OW is not pressuring him,
my H said the exact same thing....at an earlier point in the A...and I found an email from her (yeah, I've done some snooping) saying "I know I told you to take all the time you needed, but...." I read some of your former threads, and I understand the a has been going on about 7 months? I know it's hard to hear, but that may still very well be the "honeymoon" stage of the a....they are still on the "high" of "newness"...it stinks to high heaven, but it frankly takes some time for newness to wear off, and reality to set in, the fog to lift, and the rose tint to come off the glasses. I think there's a period of time when they are so "smitten" that they can't even start to see the reality of the op...that they are also human and imperfect, and that they will have irritating points, and that if they stay together, "everyday life" and all it's challenges will eventually rear it's head... I believe the ow ALWAYS have expectations. I mean, how many people want a "part time", "part of your heart" relationship? Both are on their best behavior right now, their "dating behavior"....but let it drag on, and ow will most likely start to show different feathers. I wonder how old your H's ow is? is she married? kids?
I read somewhere that women tend to have A's for power and money...men tend to have them for excitement and...hmmm, now I can't remember the 2nd one. but my observation is that it's pretty on target for women's affairs. let that drive for power and money be thwarted a while, and see what happens. People used to predict to me that ow would become demanding, they "guaranteed" it in my case, and I never could understand that, but now I see this basis for the predictions: a woman who will make herself available to a married man has issues of her own related to her unmet needs, and those issues will lead her to become very insistent in efforts to get them met.
How old is your H???? I don't remember reading that in your thread....Mid life crisis puts a whole different twist on A's...and adds a lot of issues to consider.
Quote: We do still ML too (me using him as s@x slave?!?) as that is the only real connection we still have. I don't know.... What do you think?
There is a lot of discussion of this on the boards, and I know a lot of women feel very "used" and degraded by continuing to have sex while their H is involved with someone else...and it's hard not to, I have felt not so much degraded, I guess, but betrayed, terribly betrayed. But for me, I chose to maintain that part of our relationship, and seeing it as a choice helped me to not feel degraded. I also learned to have fun. I kept that part for several reasons: frankly (sadly) my lack of interest in sex was part of what helped make H susceptible to ow's come-ons....If I gave that up, he'd have REALLY been swept away by her...and she is quite knowledgeable in that area, I must say. I came to realize very late (almost too late) that sex is very important to H....duh........ It was also a warm connection for us, one that was there when very little else was. I'd have been a fool to cut the only connection I had. instead I tried to build on it. I became a pretty "hot" pursuer...which made H suspicious....finally after almost 2 years I think he believes my interest is "real" and permanent...
Somewhere I read also that "women have sex to feel loved, Men feel loved by having sex" or something like that...I also found an email from H to ow discussing sex, and H was saying that he felt sex was a way to feel connected and close to someone....I'd have been an absolute idiot to cut it off when I had the words straight from his mouth that he felt that way. Although it made me want to urp then and still does to think of it....I guess I am truly learning to detach that I can even talk about it (plus I'm not on AD's now and it's getting to be that emotional time of month)!!!!
I keep thinking of lots of analogies...broken strings on violins, cards in a poker hand....in regards to continuing to have sex or not. I guess I'll go with the hand of cards...you play the cards that get dealt in your hand, if you only have one good one deal with, you build your strategy around the one you've got.
Do you have any idea of what might have made your H feel susceptible to another person???? I don't mean to be cruel, and you don't have to answer that for me, but I really believe that identifying the factors that our h's perceived as lacking in the M, and what the get/got from the A, is a key to developing a strategy for drawing them back.
In my very humble .02 worth, your best bet is to be the best "you" you can be, recall what attracted him to you in the first place, and try to put the spot light on those factors. SHINE!!!!!!! be confident, happy, and radiate the fact that YOU are the better choice....and be patient.
having said all that, I hope I don't come across as a hypocrit (sp?) because lord knows I've gnashed my teeth and wept and wailed and literally nutsed out....all the while with wise people here telling me to do that same thing. they were right. it's just so danged hard to do.
My H is 36 - the young bloomers in the MLC stage? The A should be about 9 months now. I guessed you could still regard that to be in the honeymoon stage. Compared to our R which clocked up to 18 years, yesterday. Yes, I am sure OW would have EXPECTATIONS that she is very cleverly shielding from H from the moment. I guessed I really have to be PATIENT to wait for the devil to reveal herself. I am sure she would, she's single, 33 (I think) and I am sure dying to get hitched.
Quote: read somewhere that women tend to have A's for power and money...men tend to have them for excitement
Wow...OW is a subordinate at his work. Mmmm....
I agree with you on the part to develop/nurture the only connection with H, i.e. s@x. In the midst of our big big arguments, we still ML and that was the only CALM event in our lives. Thankfully, I read DR and DBING after that. But, I do still have my sliding down the mountain moments.
In the beginning, when I asked H about what made him have the A, he said it was a "challenge" in the beginning that got out of hand. I don't know, perhaps, he was in a very stressful and new job. And I was not understanding in the late nights, and pressures at work. Nagging all the time. Highlighting my disappointments when he doesn't get the chores that he promised done. At one point, we were fighting every day. And on hindsight, I started most of the arguments. OW, was there working together and understood the tough pressures? Also, I guessed I haven't really validate H enough, or praise him enough. Basically, I havent' been his cheerleader. (Heck, I was a cheerleader at high school!!) I am trying to acknowledge his achievements, praise him etc, but I need to do it very subtly and slowly, bit by bit. Otherwise it would be tooo fake.
Thanks for your time, deb. I really need to have a clear mind to be patient and understanding. I really need to control my emotions and make sure that they don't get derailed.
Hi YoYo! I read through your thread, and I see so many positives with your H...and I think you are doing a great job with the dbing, you seem to be cool, calm and collected in your interactions with him, although I know how darned anxious it makes a person. but you're handling that well, also.
I really see a lot of MLC stuff in your h, and I'm wondering if you've read some of the MLC stuff here on the board? I've found it very very helpful. Particularly threads by Snodderly, and a thread called "All Sermons on one Thread" by Hearts Blessing. I've gotten a lot of guidance from them. I've also gotten a lot from Sage and from Ellie...lets see, that would be "valentines Day massacre" for Ellie, and I think Sage's current thread is "looking backward to move forward". I will try to find the "as if attitude" post from way back and bump it for you soon. Hang in there, I know it's gut wrenchingly tough, but I don't think your H is anywhere near letting go of YOU. If anything, I'd guess he's making some "touch and goes" (snodderly's term) in preparation for beginning reconnection.
quick update here on my sitch, I'd love to know what anyone else sees/makes of all this...
I don't think I've done an update since at least last Tuesday, and it has been a weird, up and down, kind of scary week for me. so, lets see what I can recall... Tuesday last week H seemed to "change" again...and yes, my ow radar was screaming. I don't know how to describe it, it's like he steps back from me...little things...my perception is that he's not as warm, not as "huggy" or involved when he does this. And he stops talking about ow. In the past, this has happened when he went back to her...so it was hard for me to keep from panicking.
I think I did fairly well, although H commented that he thought I was being "clingy"....that he could see why I was "at first but not now, it's been quite a while"...
His emails also became more businesslike, no ILY's Wednesday and Thursday...then, I think it was Wed. evening, he seemed really blue and down, and said "I just had hoped I meant more to her than that...I saw her tuesday at work, and it was like....nothing at all......."
i HATE that he has any contact, any expectations, because it means he hasnt let go. I think I just listened, didnt really make in comments, but I wanted to say "DUUUUUHHHHH, H, what do you think a person like that is really like?" H was grumpy, irritable, sad and withdrawn Wed, thurs, Fri., Sat., but started to seem better by Saturday. At one point in the week, probably Wednesday or Thursday in the night, he actually told me I was obnoxious when I snuggled up to him at night. I just moved to my side of the bed and didnt say anything. went to sleep. He was home all weekend, no "paperwork" or 4 - 5 hour walks, thank God.
Friday morning before work he did initiate ML, had no problems with performance at all?????????? I still don't know what to make of this, but it's been maybe 6 weeks now since that hit all at once. Friday evening when I got back from working out, H just looked so sad. I told him he looked sad, and he said he was...I just hugged him, and let it go.
Saturday morning he initiated ml again....no problems. I went to workout, then went to the store. I was gone maybe 2.5 hours, and he'd been home alone for maybe 1.5 hours, I'd expected to be back sooner. It was just after noon when I got home, and he didnt seem to be around. I went upstairs to our bedroom, and the door was locked, I was so shocked I was confused. I could see under the door that the light was on, though. when I rattled the door knob, he said "sorry I'll be right there"...I wondered, and still have no clue what was going on....I don't think he was on the phone w/ow, as I didnt hear the phone hang up, I think I'd have heard conversation...I did hear what sounded like elastic in a waistband snap, loud and clear. maybe he was entertaining himself, I don't know...????since we'd just ml that morning, it seems unlikely, but who knows. As soon as he'd said "just a minute", the phone rang, and he said "I'll get this and be right there ...still really weird....it was my mother on the phone .
H and I were both kind of tired and "disjointed" or something all weekend, didnt do much but watch some movies and take lots of naps. he did grill steaks sunday at his suggestion. S12 stayed with a friend on Friday night till Sat. evening, and H commented kind of dejectedly that he never got to see him, he guessed S had his own agenda and life.
Sunday however they played video games and watched tv, and H seemed to start to cheer up quite a bit then. Sometime on Sunday we got to talking about going canoeing overnight, something we used to do long long ago...it would be so great to do that again....and h mentioned that was something ow was always going to do with him, but they never did, he said she'd had all these great plans, of going canoing in the ozarks, and skiing. I fell to bad dbing again...couldnt resist saying "don't tell me, she's also a ski instructor and master canoeist"...H looked sheepish, and said "well no".
Friday it was so hot here he got sick walking outside, and I was concerned. Sunday I said something about his walking. I actually asked how long he thought he'd be gone...later in the day he commented about me being nosy and watching and counting how many steps he takes, and having to account for every second. he said I had nothing to worry about (meaning him going to meet ow) and I told him I thought he was misunderstanding me, that I worry about him outside of the A....about HIM and his wellbeing...especially when he was sick from it on Friday & it was still hot. That seemed to soothe or even please him some, he said "I guess I should be glad, nobody else worriesa about me at all, that's for sure, not even my own family...(his folks havent called or spoken to him since fourth of July) or the kids"???????not sure what to make of that.
At one point in the weekend, don't remember if it was Friday or Sat., he commented that he thinks it's going to take him awhile to get over this, like maybe 6 months, and that he just has to do it, he's going to be sad, and it will take him time to work through it, and it's hard for him to feel like he can be down or have a bad day because I get so upset...NOTE TO SELF: no matter how hard it is to see him like that, and scary, he has to experience the feeling to get past them. keep a lid on my own reactions. I did tell him it's hard to see him be sad when I care so much, and it's also scary from past experience.
H also commented, and I think this is a HUGE realization on his part, I hope an indication that maybe he's moving into the acceptance stage of mlc...would appreciate anyones thoughts thereabout....that "part of what makes it so hard is not the other person, IT IS GIVING UP THAT FANTASY, AND FACING THE REALITY THAT THIS IS HOW YOUR LIFE IS GOING TO BE. IT IS HARD TO LET GO OF THAT FANTASY, IT IS AN ESCAPE FROM A DIFFICULT SITUATION". H also said he thought his discontent with work was a big part of why he was looking for an "escape"...WOW! it's not all me any more!!!! anyway, letting loose of the fantasy makes it harder to give up the person. H said he believes that he probably intentionally created chaos in that R as a way to escape his dissatisfaction with work. BIG steps towards self-understanding?
By Saturday night, he was asking me to hold him in bed again...sometimes he just needs me to hold him....
Yesterday I got an email from him that said "ILY"...I sent him a kind of mushy one back, and he actually thanked me for it, said he'd been having a tough day, and mentioned all the a$$es at work....I interpreted that to mean he'd had more unpleasant contact w/ow.
Yesterday evening we were chatting and he said how weird "what's her name" is...we now refer to ow as "what's her name" or "the monster"...and how more and more he sees how "weird" she is...I asked what he meant, and the flood gates opened again. he said he'd realized how she is just unable to relate to other people, incapable of comprehending that they exist seperately and have different needs from her...she just has no comprehension... I asked what he meant, and he looked sheepish and said "I talked to her"...I stayed calm...and he said that in the morning as he was going down the hall, she was in her office, he stopped and asked her how her D was doing...she said a lot had happened, and he asked what...seems her D wanted to come home early from her Dad's out of state, the dad even called ow and told her that, and she REFUSED to have her D come home because SHE WOULD HAVE TO SPEND MONEY FOR CHILDCARE!!!!!!! H said he was sorry to hear that, and that it made him really sad to think how the child must feel... H said then ow yelled "f--k you, get out of here!" at him. We spent time talking about what a sad situation it is for the D. H mentioned that the female co-worker in the out of town office has been lecturing him since spring to get rid of ow, that the situation is "not good for anyone" and "you're too good a man for that"...H said he trusts her objectivity and finds it helpful and that it means a lot to hear it from her. he also has a lot of trust in and respect for ow's supervisor, whom he claims is trying her darnedest to get rid of ow...and said that tells him a lot.
Later he said "it really is about money and power, just as you said, it's not about me and her great love"...H said ow had always said she wanted him, not the money she thinks he must have BUT that he had told her that he didnt think he would have much money if he went with her, because he was sure he'd be making hefty child support payments, and that he would be making the mortgage payments for me....according to H, ow went wild over that one, saying that he didnt owe me anything, and that he insisted "well yes I do" and that she became furious and never seemed to be as interested in him after that.
We talked about it being a huge power play/issue...what a power play to be able to do that (get H)...the effects would be huge, not just for H & I, but for our kids, our families, and even the whole company here. sheesh.
At one point late in the evening, H said "you sure love to talk about it"....projection if ever there was any, I don't start the talks, H seems to begin them if I respond to any of his comments....but I told him that I ask questions because I'm trying to understand....H said I may never understand because he doesnt fully, that "all I ever wanted was a friend, this just blew me away and caught me so off guard"....but that he's glad he had the sense to "slow things down" instead of rushing in to what he believes would be an awful mess. And that ow really got po'd when he purposelly slowed things down.
I told h that one of my best friends had an affair when she was first married (she died of breast cancer 5 years ago, I sure miss her) H was shocked, his eyes got huge...and he commented "he didnt know, did he?" in reference to her H...I said "yes, he did" and you could have heard a pin drop, because the love between those 2 was so strong, you could feel the vibes just being in the same room with them.
this morning, H initiated ml about 2 am. Fine with me, especially if he's gonna be where he's likely to see ow. H didnt wear his ring to work...but I had an email signed ILY, your D...and several chatty ones. I hope his contact with ow was minimal...we had staff meeting today, I thought she looked like frumpy crap in a baggy t-shirt, and I looked great...now I couldnt be biased, could I? I had to laugh to myself though, maybe my old "spit and vinegar" is coming back slowly...a new staff member was introduced, she went to elementary and hi school where my kids do, and I let out a cheer...it just jumped out. I've been so quiet and reserved while all this has been going on, I thought it was interesting. everybody laughed. I can't help but hope that any contact w/ow has only reaffirmed how "weird" she is. and nasty. and hateful. and spiteful. and ugly. I did tell H I wish I could event a "monster spray" to make her disappear...or a bucket of water that would melt her like the witch in "wizard of oz"...he said that I didnt have anything to worry about, and he thinks she will not stay at this job much longer, she burns so many bridges and is so disliked that she can't stay anywhere long.
oh, yeah, he did mention that she always tries to keep the "sentimentality" alive...I asked how, and he said she was always saying how she was "sure going to miss him"....I was getting fired up, and he said it's been awhile, and "she does that with all those guys"....
sorry for the long post, but I'd sure like to hear any insights anyone who reads it might have....
I'm thinking I may try to construct a timeline over in mlc to figure out where maybe this is at...I read HB's recently, I never knew for sure how to do that....it might be helpful.
Quote: part of what makes it so hard is not the other person, IT IS GIVING UP THAT FANTASY, AND FACING THE REALITY THAT THIS IS HOW YOUR LIFE IS GOING TO BE. IT IS HARD TO LET GO OF THAT FANTASY, IT IS AN ESCAPE FROM A DIFFICULT SITUATION".
One thing my h said to me after he turned around was, that he realized he wanted that fantasy love, but wanted to have it with me.
You need to really get a move on and let H see that he iSN'T coming back to the same old same old - that this can be a FUN, new ECXCITING R with you. For some silly reason, my H really liked calling me by a new name, pretending I was his "new" girlfriend, etc. I loosened up and teased and joked with him a lot. Start romancing your H, and surprising him with 180s, so that he won't know what to expect every day when he comes home. And get back into "merchandising" your home - so he comes home to soft lighting, music, good smells, etc.
Hi Ellie, Yes, I think you're right on target that NOW is the time to start romancing....hmmmm, still as always thinking what I can do. Actually, I think we've made huge strides in building a new R....and it is becoming exciting....I think there may have been some breakthrough last night/evening, will post about that in a minute.
but yes, I need to keep putting effort into spicing things up. I have been continuing to do the fragrance oils, candles, etc, and the music. Although I'm thinking I may stop and pick up a couple new cd's, it's been a while.
I am exploring websites for ideas, and would love to hear any ideas anyone has. That said however, I think H might run for the hills if I started calling him a different name...however, some new pet name might be fun. What I've run into is that ow used every darn thing I've come up with!
H got home about 8:30, was more pleasant than he is most tuesdays. He changed, came downstairs and said he was going for a walk. I commented it was a nice evening for one, and he asked "would you like to come"...I told him I'd love to, and dropped what I was doing, and we walked for an hour. and talked. and topic of ow came up....at H's leading, not mine. and he was back to being focused on all the things that were not "right" with them. Even after we got home, he talked and talked and talked. at one point, he stood up, said he was going to go down and do some crunches, then said "no, I guess I won't" and sat back down, and kept on talking. said he thinks ow is really crashing, and he doesnt care, he can't take anymore of her, that he's letting go of all of it. said the older nurse who carpools with her came back to his office weirdly several times yesterday, like she was checking on him or something....
As we were talking at the table, he actually quoted his horoscope from the paper yesterday, which is unusual for him to even pay attention to: it was"You'll make a choice today, and in so doing reject everything that is not that choice. Such a sacrifice is necessary tfro you to get out of a quagmire and re-establish your life's direction". he commented that he didn't know that choice had been made yesterday, but that it sure hit home with him that he needed to let the "other" go to move on with what he really wants in life.
Interestingly, in church Saturday the priest talked about just that very thing, AND framed the subject in the context of someone he had been working with who had "just come out on the other side of his mid-life crisis" and the life lessons this guy had learned through his experience...which included that his top priorities in life were to be faithful to his wife (!!), the need for a career change, and to do what he could to be a person his children could continue to love and respect. it was amazing, I wondered if the priest had seen us come in and pulled that homily out of his hat...probably not, but it is the one I talked to...anyway, S12 commented later that he'd seen his Dad's head snap up when the priest started talking. Maybe God was providing the right lesson at the right time.
At one point he mentioned a CE workshop he's thinking about attending, and said "it's close to your birthday and at "our" hotel" ( a place where we used to stay a lot years ago)...I told him I'd go in a minute and love it...havent heard more about it, so we'll see if he gets himself registered. It would be wonderful!!!!!!!!
When we went to bed, h pulled me toward him and held me, it was so nice and so warm and tender. he held me for a long time, just stroking my arms and talking... then he initiated ml, 2nd time in 2 days, and he had a good time...no problems, and I have no doubt he liked it every bit as much as I did. He made a naughty comment..."I always wanted someone who liked to ---k". I made lewd comments back, working at shedding my repressed attitudes, I guess. but it was fun. and naughty and wild.
Now here's the odd thing: although I think ow is really wild sexually, and very experienced...yeah, I've got to hear a few things....she doesnt LIKE it, if that makes sense.
afterwards, h held me again. and talked as we drifted off to sleep. said that he thinks the sex is better than it has ever been, ever, in all the years we've been together. So, that is a huge 180!!!!! and we discussed that we talk much better than we used to, and spend more time together, and enjoy it more. and then we drifted off to sleep.
this morning H came through the bathroom when I was in the shower, and commented that when S goes to spend the night with a friend, we need to go on a date !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to this really fun little hole-in-the-wall pizza place we used to go to. I could hardle believe I was hearing this...Of course I told him I would love that!
Later in the kitchen, he pulled me close and held me and gave me several wonderful warm kisses. Usually he is in such a rush in the mornings he's a real grump. AND THEN he said that we needed to start going on some dates and doing some fun things every week or so, and that he was starting to feel that he wanted to do that was ready to and looking forward to it......MORE ANSWERS TO MY PRAYERS AND WILDEST HOPES AND DREAMS. another lesson to self though: This was something I couldnt push him into, and I still have to let him go slow...it has been many many years that I've longed for this. I told him I couldnt wait, that I was so excited, that I feel like we are going to be able to build the kind of M that most people only dream of having....and he agreed. I also mentioned that I've come to believe that neither of us ever wanted anything less, or did anything intentionally to hurt/cause it, but that we just got so wrapped up in kids and bills and chores and work that we lost sight of how important we are to each other. He agreed.
H put on his wedding ring to go to work this morning, in front of me and happily, and I never said a word about it (I don't anymore, havent for a long time anyway). That sure meant a lot.
I got an email from him just a minute ago that said he couldnt talk long because the receptionist is out today, but he wanted to wish me a good day and say "I sure love you".
I am so excited. So many things I never even dared to really wish for seem about to happen!
Quote: I got an email from him just a minute ago that said he couldnt talk long because the receptionist is out today, but he wanted to wish me a good day and say "I sure love you".
I am so excited. So many things I never even dared to really wish for seem about to happen!
Deb - I see your sitch has been improving lots. I am a little green with envy. Your H telling you that you guys need to go on a date and all, to reconnect etc. It's really really good. Wonder if I could dream about this happening to me...
I did read a little bit about MLC...was a bit scared about the part that it ranges from 2 - 5 years. I am trying to recollect when was the time that this could have started... H changed job about 18 months ago from one that he had been for 9 years. He felt that he needed change... Now, he is getting back to his "old" job with the new job that he is getting in a foreign country. So, I wonder if the "MLC" started about 20 months ago? Then perhaps I have about 4 months to go?? We have not talked about OW (I've not brought it up, and neither has he) for a while (acting as-if there is no OW in our lives...) so, I don't know what's happened between them. They did go to the work seminar away... I guessed I just have to thought-STOP whenever OW pops up and continue with my as-if attitude. I will consult you again on any good advice when I feel my sitch has changed to a different level ...hopefully to a better one.
Haven't been posting a lot. Just been reading your advice to yoyo girl. I found it very useful to remind me to keep dbing. Now that I will be meeting H in Vegas in a few days the whole gifts from possible ow is looming large in my mind. H and I have been talking on the phone a lot.
He says he misses me so much and loves me very very much. I don't want to blow it when I see him. Your take on how ow is in it for the power and the money makes so much sense.
H is well off business owner so I can see how that plays into it. It was a timely reminder to me to just let this op self destruct. But it is very hard. When I think of how you have done it for 2 yrs and with her working there with you. I think if you can do it through all of that and come out with your M intact on the other side then I can do it too.
Don't get derailed by ow suspicions. You are right I think letting go of the fantasy of ow is hard for Hs. Hang in there.
, ugh, as I'll post in a bit...but, I can share a few tidbits with you...
I just moved to my side of the bed and didnt say anything. went to sleep. He was home all weekend, no "paperwork" or 4 - 5 hour walks, thank God. 
and I never said a word about it (I don't anymore, havent for a long time anyway). That sure meant a lot.