ZB, I don't think my H thinks it "needs" to be locked up on the shelf--he prefers it that way.
WHY I don't know. I could say it's none of my beeswax, but of course it is since how he views himself affects the quality, frequency, and 'tone' of our sex life.
Lemme ask you this: Does your wife have low self esteem in general? MrHP does and I believe that this greatly contributes to his sexuality. His drive is not all that low (though lower than mine) but he has NO confidence. Even before job interviews he wants me to coach him and help him figure out what to say, etc. Now I've never worked a day in my life in his field. Everything I know about manufacturing has come directly from his mouth. But he wants me to help him! I detest this quality. My confidence is not over the moon but neither do I have this mental picture of myself as a loser type person. It's frustrating.
So a big portion of his hangups (if you wanna call them that) hinge on: Why would she find me sexy. Why would she want this. etc etc ad nauseum.
However, I should say here that H and I have been banded together like crazy lately. Tons of affection and closeness. Spending time together..more accurately, him wanting to be with me, no matter what time it is and what's going on w/ the kids. We are talking and sharing and enjoying the heck outta each other. There is not much more sex going on, but I'm SO enjoying the rest of it.
Last night, my H was in the mood to talk and I was mentally chastising myself to shutup and not interrupt and employ empathy, etc.
And then it hit me: All those annoying Type 7 conversational habits really don't crop up with my H. I find him such an interesting person to talk with. When we are talking, we can end up staying up pretty late just chatting with each other. Empathy is there. No interrupting or "let's talk about me", etc.
It was a nice surprise to find that it's not a chore to have to do this. Of course, he's a people pleasin type 6 and has a mostly sunny disposition and interesting stories. One thing about my H is that his esteem is not that high. So rather than blab all his life stories, he tends to not share them, thinking that they are not all that colorful, right. So he doles em out, slowly over the years. The result is that I am always finding out new things about him.
Last night we spent some good quality time together and then went to bed. He was making some tentative moves towards sex but nothing definitive. I was just about to ask him what his pleasure was...sex or sleep..when he said, How about we make a date for sex for tomorrow night. I'm fine with that. The 'hotness' of it is diminished somewhat because I think, here you've got a guy who has his hands on my *****, he is hard, we are not tired, we have a strong EC from talking, we are both naked. So I'm thinking, I wonder why tomorrow night sounds good but right now doesn't?
Oh well, tonight it is! Good thing he invested the time in me to develop the EC so that I was not disappointed or resentful that my squeezy bits elicited a hardon but not enough desire. Ok, so maybe there's a tiny bit of resentment but honestly, folks, it is SO tiny that even I can get a handle on it.
Yes, I do think W has low self-esteem. I’m not sure how that jibes with the C’s diagnosis of a “narcissistic personality”, but it does.
Your, “Why would she find me sexy. Why would she want this” is something else that’s spot on. MrsBube has never actually said those words, but I still hear them loud and clear – and frequently. I can relate to the job interview thing too. W has been a SAHW and SAHM ever since we got married, so the specific instance of a job interview doesn’t apply, but the attitude does. MrsBube frequently looks to me for reassurance in areas where she is clearly much more competent than I.
Her cakes are a good example. She has been doing cakes for close to 20 years. They invariably look and taste great regardless of whether it’s a simple kid’s birthday cake or some complex wedding cake with columns and fountains and all sorts of fancy foofaraw. I have never once seen a disappointed look or heard anything but the highest praise for any of her cakes. She has multiple repeat customers. Yet with every single cake, I have to bolster her confidence. With every one, she says something like, “It doesn’t look very good does it?” Or more frequently, she’ll ask me if it looks alright and then start pointing out all the defects to me.
Quote: Journey, What else can ya tell me, my sister? How did you climb out of this type of thinking? And I have to tell you that I find your whole trip amazing.
Well, HP, I have quoted this before, from a Bob Dylan song: "I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now." I really do miss my daughter right about now, because if I say anything remotely philisophical to her, she will mock me by doing a Yoda imitiation ( we are visitng her this weekend).
The irony of the whole thing is that I wake up to play only to find that my H has the same issues and then some. Yup, life is an amazing trip, say I.
I have one quick question for you... Who are your H's friends? I ask because in my college days I had a few (very) HD girlfriends but over time, I gravitated to the LD neurotic mom group. I bet you know them well. Awhile back, I did some volunteering at the school and was thrown in with a bunch of more fun loving, raucousy women and I came to really like them ( and thought they were great moms too) and they would gently make fun of me and helped to loosen me up. I recently met up with an old college friend was was HD and helped to snap her out of uptightville ( this didn't take too much effort, though). It helps if there is a good friend in the picture with a healthy attitude.
It jives perfectly with a narcissistic personality. Remember as long as you reflect back to your W what she wants or expects to see....she's ok. Her cakes are a great example....narcassists need others to bolster them up, just like with her tearing her own cakes down....she does this because she expects you to praise them to boost her importance. I have no doubt her cakes are great, but that's an excellent example of something a narcassist would do.
Out of curiosity, if you agreed with her that something was a bit off on one of her cakes what would she do? Agree and be ok with the criticism....or have a meltdown because it's not perfect?
That's hard to answer. A lot of it depends upon the cake and the time. If there's time, she's been known to pitch the whole cake and start over. But since she tries to make them as fresh as possible, she's usually on a pretty tight schedule. The few times I've agreed that the cake wasn't one of her better efforts, she's done a kind of mini-meltdown of self-disparagement, then come to the realization that all she can do is give it her best. After her attempts to address the problem(s), I’ve always told her that it looked better. She still says it “looks like crap”, but has delivered it anyway. I should point out here again, that she’s never had a complaint or even any indication that the customer wasn’t very happy with the cake.
Journey, My H is a loner, like our friend Zsomethingorotherbube.
His friends would be his two brothers and...that's really it. He sees his brothers at family functions of course, and they do something socially a few times a year, if that.
He is friendly and people love him, but he does not cultivate friendships.
Most of the men at his jobs over the years are the type to complain about not getting any. This makes H feel dreadfully uncomfortable, as he thinks it is in poor taste and it sorta makes him vow to be even more in control of his sexuality--so that he doesn't ever act like THAT. I agree that public complaining about lackanookie is in bad taste but I would have the opposite reaction and think, Yeah man me neither. Only silently.
If only there were a hardcore Catholic man who was head over heels in love with his wife who could gently make jokes about it, all in a context of sacrificial love. Now THAT would pique his curiosity! GGB, when are ya moving to Misery. lol
Journey, I have an LD type 4 sister who complains a lot about her R with her husband. I have considered bluntly asking, How's your sex life? but was unsure how she'd take that. As close as I am to her (we speak every day) she does not know my HD secret. It simply has never come up. If it does I will not hesitate to tell the truth, but it hasn't come up. She makes comments quite often that her husband would be happy so long as she's naked, but it's always said in that disdainful way. So I didn't feel like I could jump in and take his side! Plus, she's my best friend and I mistakenly came clean about my libido with my SIL, who was a very close friend of mine, and the friendship cooled fast and furiously.
I saw an interesting thing at swimming lessons the other day. This gal who had been there with her two kids every day was sitting in the chair, furiously doing bills.
Her husband walked in..I deduced that he must have taken off work to come see the kids swim. He had that excited, expectant look on his face of a guy who is breaking his routine and happy to see his family. She did not even look up from her bills. He said Hi!, she mumbled something. The entire time he was there, he sat with the little boy and cuddled and kissed him. Not that this means much, but the mother had never done any of this on the other days. He kept trying to get her attention but she was not looking up from her planner. The lesson was over and they left.
But I was sitting next to them and you know what I was thinking? Well several things.
Firstly, I was AMAZED that women can get away with this type of behavior. I wouldn't even think of it. Since my H is not irresistably drawn to my body, I can't imagine giving him the cold shoulder, also. I have to use my sunny personality to draw him in towards me and THEN he might want to have sex.
Secondly, it is not really my personality to be that unrelentingly crabby with another person, knowing they are trying to get close to me. I'd feel terrible doing that, unless it was the aftermath of an argument. (which it very well could have been, who knows) It seemed like business as usual for them, tho.
As an HD woman, I am continually amazed at how some women are 'allowed' to act...what they get away with...and still have these whipped men chasing after them, hoping for a scrap of kindness or affection. This woman did not take care of herself, she looked like a slob, and she was flat out rude to him.
I had a brief moment of "Where did I go wrong??" and then I thought that this must be how it appears to the HD guys as well. You fellas probably look at our H's and wonder why we bother and what they do to deserve our focus.
C'est la vie, right.
Ok, now I'm going to really do something productive today.
Quote: As an HD woman, I am continually amazed at how some women are 'allowed' to act...what they get away with...and still have these whipped men chasing after them, hoping for a scrap of kindness or affection.
You know one of my theories is that our Hs are LD so that they won't end up "whipped" like this. If a kid tells himself that he doesn't like cookies anyways then he never has to do what Mommy wants.
My LD friend told me that her H had said something to her that was rude. I asked her what and she told me he said "Are you still in your pajamas?". So I told her Mr.W's latest gem which was "The way you are wearing your hair makes you look very 1970's butch.".
Lately, I've been considering a mental 180 on the "leverage" issue which reverses the usual marital sexual economics. Instead of thinking of sex as something I have to "pay" my LD partner for in some form, I could consider sex as something my partner "owes" me and if I don't receive it I should get compensation. For instance, on each occasion I don't get laid 2x a week, I should take $50 from his bank account and spend it on something fun just for me. If he doesn't put out he can pay up.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
