I think the occasional mastubatory excursion wouldn't be such a point of resentment, if you didn't have to go through some level of dramatic BS everytime (or on a regular basis whether or not it is *every* time) you wanted sex - even if you weren't ML as often as you would prefer.
Has your husband ever acknowledged the destructive and disrepectful things he has said to you as something in which he shouldn't engage? Does he ever apologize for them or does he believe that it is acceptable behavior?
That has to wear on you and the relationship, resulting in a shorter trigger for irritants.
Quote: I think the occasional mastubatory excursion wouldn't be such a point of resentment, if you didn't have to go through some level of dramatic BS everytime (or on a regular basis whether or not it is *every* time) you wanted sex - even if you weren't ML as often as you would prefer.
Well that is certainly true, so I guess we are in agreement.
Quote: Has your husband ever acknowledged the destructive and disrepectful things he has said to you as something in which he shouldn't engage? Does he ever apologize for them or does he believe that it is acceptable behavior?
I believe that my H is appalled at his own behavior in the sense that he does not think it is acceptable to call his wife a "c*nt". However, I believe that he does feel like he is justified in feeling resentment about agreeing to meet my sexual demands and I believe that this is a big problem.
Analogy: A woman is HD to have kids and her H isn't. For years it is a contentious issue between them. He has a million delaying tactics and excuses; they don't have enough money, the world is overpopulated, kids ruin your sex life etc.. He even resorts to attacking his W's self-esteem on the issue by saying things like "I don't want to have kids with you because you're too inattentive so you'd make a lousy mother.". His W doesn't like the situation but she can see some validity to some of his arguments and there are some compensating factors in their marriage that make her unwilling to rock the boat on the kids issue. Then one day she realizes that she is really desperately unhappy at the thought of living her life without children. She does everything possible to mitigate any reasonably valid objections her H might have to the concept. For instance, she stops spending money on clothes and starts a pre-conception college fund and she goes to a psychiatrist to verify that she doesn't have ADD to the extent that she would be an incompetent parent. Still her H balks at the idea of becoming a parent. So she feels like she has no choice but to lay her marriage on the line. She tells her H that if he is unwilling to have a child, she will have to leave him because having children is one of the main reasons to even be married in her opinion and she will never be truly happy in their marriage to him if being married to him means that she has to give up the possibility of motherhood.
Her H doesn't want to lose her so he agrees to have a child. At first his W is very happy. It seems like everything has worked out so well. But then..... she's three monthes pregnant and she wakes up in the middle of the night craving pickles. She nudges her H and says "I'm really craving pickles. Will you please go get me some?" and her H replies "Why should I go out and get pickles? You're the one who wanted a baby. Go get your own f*cking pickles.". His wife is hurt and angered by this display of obvious resentment but she addresses the issue with him and it seems to be resolved but then two monthes later she is trying to decide whether she'll use paper or cloth diapers. She asks her H for his opinion on the matter and he says "Why should I care? I'm not the one who is going to be changing the diapers.". Another fight, another theoretical resolution of the issue. However, who can blame the W if when it is time to sign up for Lamaze class she realizes that she doesn't even want her H to be her birthing partner. His resentment is ruining what should be a wonderful experience and she is losing respect for him because he keeps making agreements but then doesn't honor them with good will. She decides that she would be better off as a single mother because just the fact of having a baby or even 10 babies will make no difference in her happiness in her marriage because what she really wants is a husband who is willing to be an actively engaged parent with her. Therefore, she would be better off on her own because then at least the possibility that she might meet a man who would be a generous and involved stepfather would exist and even if this never happened at least her own joy in motherhood wouldn't be spoiled by her H's bile and resentment.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Further evidence that my H is "bargaining in bad faith" with me as we try to resolve this issue is the fact that on the last two occasions we've had a fight due to an obvious display of resentment on his part, he has tried to "re-open negotiations" by defending his resentful tantrums by saying things like "Well, you wouldn't be happy if we were having sex once every two weeks which is what I want, would you?" in such a way that it is clear that he is looking for a response to his counter-offer. When he said this I actually did take a few seconds to consider if I could commit in good faith to having sex only twice a month if it would mean resolving the issue, but I had to give my honest response which was "No, I would not be happy with that arrangement.". I should note that my H did not recommit to our previous agreement of sex twice a week. He did commit to seeing a doctor about his testosterone levels even though this was not something I was insisting upon. Also, he has initiated sex 4x since this fight and he has been very pleasant otherwise, but my trust has eroded to the point that although this makes me happy it gives me no confidence in any future happiness.
Another thing that is sticking with me from this last fight is that in response to me saying something along the lines of "Well you used to blame your LD on the fact that I was overweight.", he said very angrily "Well, you were a fat f*ck, but you aren't fat anymore so I guess you don't have to worry about me saying that anymore.". I had an odd emotional response to this comment because OTOH it revealed some truly superficial pettiness in his nature but OTOH it revealed that he really doesn't think I'm fat anymore, despite his previous comments that I could stand to lose another 20 lbs. One of these days I'm going to post a picture of "fat" Jenny just so you guys can get a fair idea of how "repulsive" I actually was. I am really so over this issue that it wouldn't even bother me to be told by a jury of my peers that I was too fat to be f*ckable.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Jenny, Don't you think part of the problem is your H's inability to be accountable for his actions?
I mean, it's one thing to be appalled at yourself but it takes a whole other level of disgust to swallow your pride and verbally apologize. It also creates a sense of accountability in you, the offender--you OWN your boo boo and probably somewhere in the apology is a commitment to try and refrain in the future.
This is where it all breaks down for MW. There is no personal accountability for his actions. If he makes an agreement to have sex 2x a week and then breaks it, there is no apology necessary or even a showing of remorse cause it was ridiculous for you to even think it would happen, in the first place.
Well maybe it was but he is forgetting that HE is the one who made the commitment, with his own words. If nothing else, I would think that he would feel bad for breaking his word.
Now there was technically no promise ever made to refrain from calling you a c*nt but, again, I would think that his moral code would prompt him to take responsibility for his actions and apologize--even if he was provoked into saying it, it's still wrong.
Incidentally, MrHP has an impossible time apologizing as well. It has become sortof a joke around here that I will ask him to apologize to me, after he has started his Nice Suck Up routine. He wants to do this in order to weasel out of having to say out loud, I was wrong--please forgive me. I would rather hear a short apology, and be done with it, than a long drawn out suck upagge period. Whenever I do something wrong, I apologize and it isn't easy for me.
Religion has been verrrry good for him, in this arena. It has really helped him grow as a person. I'm not suggesting this for MW but I am saying that until he learns how to take responsibility for his own actions, I wonder how he thinks this will all get resolved?
Quote: I'm not suggesting this for MW but I am saying that until he learns how to take responsibility for his own actions, I wonder how he thinks this will all get resolved?
Good question. Lately I've been thinking that I'm not the one who needs this BB anymore. I feel like I'm going to be fine no matter how things work out. OTOH, MrW clearly needs some help of some sort. He actually is more religious than I am, sort of a lapsed Lutheran as opposed to my NeoPaganAgnosticism. When he was going through an unemployment/depression crisis a few years ago he started attending a rural Quaker church in an attempt to get his act back together. I don't recall that it was very helpful. I think he made a comment along the lines of "Now I remember why I don't go to church, I don't like people.".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Don't you think part of the problem is your H's inability to be accountable for his actions?
I mean, it's one thing to be appalled at yourself but it takes a whole other level of disgust to swallow your pride and verbally apologize. It also creates a sense of accountability in you, the offender--you OWN your boo boo and probably somewhere in the apology is a commitment to try and refrain in the future
Boy I really think you nailed it with this! I really think that could be what his problem is. He don't want to own up to it. Every once in awhile he will throw excuses out there. But when those excuses are gone he still won't own up to it.
That is just how my husband is also. JJ my husband said the same thing to me...you are over weight and that is the reason for my lowered sex drive. Well, I to lost the weight. He sure the heck hasn't changed!! So now I'm waiting for the next excuse. Oh wait there was one because I b**** and nag to much. Well, wahhhhh maybe if I got laid more often I would smile a whole lot more.LOL
Quote: "Now I remember why I don't go to church, I don't like people.".
LOLOL
This is MrHP too. I have to remind him to be charitable to people, cause his natural tendency is to be a hermit. When he is faced with the fact that he chose to live in a suburb instead of a mountaintop, he gets pissed off at those around him. "People" drive him nutz.
The whole "love your neighbor as yourself" part really throws mrhp for a loop. That's where I come in and help him tone himself down and learn how to play well with the other kids on the playground.
Actually the whole hermit thing is starting to get to me too. I have had to turn down 2 social engagements recently because my H didn't want to go. Also, last night he got annoyed with me simply because I said I was jealous of his sister because she was spending a week at a writer's workshop in France. Because I know him oh so well I know he was annoyed because he has negative interest in any kind of European vacation. Basically he sees our future together as a hellish melange of anxiety provoking activities that I will insist that he participate in with me. OTOH my nightmare vision of our future together is me stuck at home preparing snacks while he watches sports on TV and we have no sex.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You can count me in that group too. That's why I've chosen to live in the country rather than a city or suburb. I just don't like people.
A couple of days ago, I told W that I'm not friendly: I'm not UNfriendly, just not friendly. Let me tell you, W was shocked - shocked, I say. She raised her eyebrows, put her hand over her mouth, and said, "No!!! Really? You?" It really was a new discovery for me, but she has obviously known for a long time.
I’ve always seen myself as friendly, but just not very sociable. I have friends and I think I’m a good friend. But generally speaking, I just prefer my own company. I'll even avoid friends because I just don't feel like being sociable. Our immediate neighbor is a prime example. I cheerfully drop everything and head over there when she calls about snakes in her chickens. I catch them and release them in an unpopulated and heavily wooded area about five miles down the road. She, and both of her boys, are super-sensitive to poison ivy, so I’m more than happy to go pull the poison ivy off of her fence and gate and haul it away. I get her horse off of the road and back in the pasture. I feed her animals when they’re out of town. When one of us is going to town, we always call the other to see if they need anything. I’ll do most anything for her, and I’ll do it cheerfully. We’ve been know to do holiday cookouts together, and when we do, I’m invariably friendly. I always considered that being a friend.
But I’m just not terribly sociable. Most of the time, I just prefer either my own company or that of my family. My girls come close to spending the summers in her pool, but in the twenty one years we’ve known her, I think I’ve been in it twice. And one of those was skinny dipping with W late one night when the lady was out of town and we had been forced to do some late-night fence repair. We were hot and sweaty, the pool was cool and inviting, we didn’t have anything to wear, and we did what most anybody would have done: stripped off and jumped in.
But I digress. The point is that I am friendly. I play just fine with others. I don’t sit in the corner and sulk. I’m not rude. I’m not unfriendly. I just generally prefer not to do much socializing.
I'm really mostly a homebody myself but IMO my H's lack of sociability is extreme. I used to make excuses for him in order to not be embarrassed when he rejected social engagements but I do less of that now. For instance, when some friends invited us over to watch videos recently, I just said "H is being a hermit this weekend, but I'd like to come over.". I guess his hermit habits vs. my need for at least some sociability and change of scene are just another thing that doesn't bode well for our relationship in our upcoming empty nest phase because he has the tendency to feel abandoned when I do go out without him.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
JJ my husband said the same thing to me...you are over weight and that is the reason for my lowered sex drive. Well, I to lost the weight. He sure the heck hasn't changed!! So now I'm waiting for the next excuse. Oh wait there was one because I b**** and nag to much. Well, wahhhhh maybe if I got laid more often I would smile a whole lot more.LOL 
