We did have pre-cana, actually twice, before we got married (one by the priest who married us and one with the necomb center at her college...our priest required us to use his). Sex was discussed, but only in a more or less cursory manner, and she pretty well tuned it out (that should have been a warning sign then, but I didn't recognize it). She says it ins not a religious thing, just that she feels like she is intruding and doesn't belong there. The pregnancies didn't seem to bother her much (except the well meaning folks that have asked her when she's due 6 months after the baby is born and those who react like she's ready to drop the baby when she was only 7 months along (she carries big). She did pretty much avoid the birthing material in the birthing classes, which we only did the first time around.
It seems to be mostly a notion that 'nice' people don't talk about sex that was apparently the attitude around her FOO.
Quote: I get the impression that she feels like she is a bad lover, not just because she is unwilling to try different things, but because the whole enterprise just creeps her out.
BINGO!!! My feeling exactly. Those of you who’ve been here long enough might recallthe story about the couple boinking in the car parked next to us at Daytona Beach. If you’ll remember, that’s when the little light bulb over my head finally came on. W think sex is “gross”. Not BJ’s, not sex in cars, just sex. And you were right again when you said, “These issues were probably there long before ZB got there.” I’ve said that on this board too. That goes back to several old threads about her FOO and the alleged sexual abuse by her older brother. Way too much to rehash here.
MrsNOP
Quote: Of course, this indicates that your wife does talk and/or express opinions about sex publicly - it just appears that it's primarily in a negative sense.
You know that's not a good thing. Have you ever heard her do this? What was the sitch and what was said or implied?
I’ve heard her say things many times, but now that I’m in the spotlight, I’m having a hard time coming up with details. The only thing that comes immediately to mind is the story I just cited about the couple boinking in the car. W and the kids were still at the beach and she sent me back to the car to lock up the camera and camcorder. The couple were doing it in the car parked right next to us. I told W about it, but all she got out was, “that’s disgusting” before the kids interrupted. I know there have been many, many more, but that’s the only specific one that comes to mind.
And special thanks to all of you who replied. This would be way too long if I quoted everything that made me say, “Yes! That’s right!” So consider this as having said that in lots of places.
After replying to some of the posts that came in over the weekend, I think I want to add a little recap.
I recognize that a big part of the problem is that I’ve allowed MrsBube to get away with too much for too long. I accepted the sexless years and her assertion that she would “work on it” herself. I’m still accepting that she goes first. I’m still accepting more or less disinterested missionary position sex after she’s had her O. I’m still accepting that oral is a one-way street. I’m accepting her assertion that she’s a bad lover without saying or doing anything to address the truth of that assertion. Clearly, the path to a fuller and more satisfying SL is for me to stop accepting whatever she chooses to offer and asking for something more.
My big issue/question at this point is figuring out how and when to change my level of acceptance. Since W has well known and well documented issues with sex, with self-esteem, with anger, with what the C called a narcissistic personality, with allegations of sexual abuse in her past (allegations which I still don’t think really rise to the level of abuse), and with unwillingness to communicate, I really don’t know how to proceed. I’m not she, and I don’t really know what’s going on in her head, but it seems to me that she’s very insecure in her sexuality. As MrsNOP has so comprehensively listed, there are any number of things that W may be thinking when she comes out with her bad lover pronouncement, but I do believe that W really does believe that she’s a bad lover.
The first and biggest question is does W want to be a better lover. The next is, how do I best help her to achieve that goal without aggravating any of the known issues and problems listed above. I feel like I’m walking on egg shells when I try to approach things like this. If her sexual confidence is really as fragile as I think it might be, I don’t want to damage it further.
Quote: The first and biggest question is does W want to be a better lover.
I really wouldn't get caught up in worrying about this. She will become a better lover as you assert what you need. You have a great sense of the issues and are compassionate and certainly patient....I feel what you need to do here is to think of a small step that would make you feel " given to." Don't think about whether this is the right thing for her to do given her ( dis) abilities...think what is right for you...I know you will come up with something reasonable to the situation. if you keep catering to what she can or cannot do, then what she gives you will not really be for you. What is a small thing that Z-Bube would enjoy?
I may be missing something here, but I still think this all hinges on whether or not W has any desire to become a better lover. If she’s not interested in making the effort, what does it matter what I ask for?
Maybe they haven’t been the kind of things you think I should be asking for, but I have asked for things in the past. In this very thread, I mentioned that I’ve asked to try other positions, only to be met with, “Let’s just do this.” In my mind, that was the easiest of requests: it doesn’t require any change of routine or doing anything we weren’t already doing. All that I asked was that we do what we were already doing in a slightly different manner. I wasn’t asking for anything exotic; in fact, my most common request has been for her to get on top. We’re still talking pretty plain vanilla here.
I’ve also asked for a massage – something I do for her on an almost daily basis. Sometimes I get a little bit, but generally it’s not much. Sometimes she’ll apologize and tell me that the carpal tunnel syndrome she got from years of decorating cakes just makes it too hard. Other times she’ll do it for a minute or so and then just quit with no explanation. I don’t want to discount any pain that she might really be feeling, but it seems to me that she’s just not putting a lot into it. And even though I’ve mentioned it several time, she has never once offered a massage without being asked.
So if W is just using her assertion that she’s a bad lover in order to allow herself to be a bad lover, no request for any baby step will make any difference. I agree with MrsNOP that “why” questions are usually non-productive, but I wonder if I might get better results that way. I know I wouldn’t get a straight answer, but maybe, just maybe, she might think about it.
Quote: I may be missing something here, but I still think this all hinges on whether or not W has any desire to become a better lover. If she’s not interested in making the effort, what does it matter what I
ZB, have you and your wife ever had any other areas where you disagree? Do you ever have disagreements about which restaurant to eat at, whether or not to remodel the house, which car to buy, whether or not to allow one of the kids to go whereever - that sort of thing? What is the dynamic when the two of you have *any* difference of opinion the necessitates a choice?
ZB, What does desire for change have to do with anything? My kids do not desire to change their ways but I force the issue anyway. There are a number of ways to do this--by force, by bribery, by manipulation (negative), or by positive reinforcement, setting clear boundaries with appropriate punishment, etc.
You might say, Well I'm not her dad. Right you are, but still the dynamic is the same, right? People change all the time and many times they had NO desire to do so.
When I first married, MrHP babied me and did everything. His reasoning was that I was too precious or something to have to do anything. Although I knew this was not right, in some philosophical sense, I went along with it cause it sooo worked for me. After a few years of this, he tired of it and made a stand that things had to change. Lemme tell you: I did NOT desire to change this dynamic. It worked quite nicely for me.
At the same time, I realized that there was no reciprocity in our relationship and that it couldn't continue like this indefinitely. So out the window it went.
It took a while for me to become accustomed to the new setup. AND it took a while for my ex-control freak husband to understand that I was not going to do things precisely the way he liked them. IOW, I was a person also, who had desires and preferences and ideas about how things should be run. So he had to give up a little of his control but, in return, he became absolved of having to do absolutely everything around our house. (I am talking about laundry, cleaning, etc)
Nowadays the pendulum has swung so far the other way, it is a running gag with us. I do everything in the house (as I am a SAHM) with the exception of yardwork and car maintenance. He does give the kids a bath most nights and for that I am eternally grateful.
I guess my point is that desire to change is not necessary. If it were, NOBODY would ever change cause who likes to change. Not I.
This is an excuse you are using to avoid the sucky prospect of confronting your wife's selfishness.
Quote: What does desire for change have to do with anything?
HP, that's how I see it as well. There is no need to make it a sexual desire issue. It is an issue of when two people live together and have a relationship, there have to be accommodations. And the accommodation cannot all be one-sided.
It's not an issue of whether or not she wants to be a better lover. On things like position switches, next time you get a "let's just do it this way" a kind, gentle, yet assertive "I would rather not this time, I would prefer to X". The crap may hit the fan, but the stalemate will be pushed a bit.
Slowly
