Quote: but my point about Mrs. ZB declaring herself to be a bad lover was NOT about her feelings but about her definition of herself and what actions might fit within that definition. It's the way some people say they can't cook, they are no good with computers, they hate math, they can't sew. People who make those declarations are also saying, don't ask me to cook, fix the computer, solve for 'x' in this equation, or hem this dress.
You are assuming that is what she means.
She may be saying it because she feels guilty for not participating more, and ZB's assurances help quell the discomfort.
She may be saying it because she has some nebulous idea that she should be doing more, but doesn't have a clue as to what it is.
She may be lazy and saying it to keep ZB from pushing her for more active participation.
She may be perfectly happy the way things are and getting some sense of controlling & manipulating ZB by whining at him so she can get assurances that she's knows he doesn't really believe.
The fact is - we don't have a clue.
NOP wrote in his earlier time here: "She has been telling me for 2+ decades - "I will never be sexy". Like a twerp, I thought that if I could ever get her to have frequent sex again, I could interest her in having fun with it."
Doesn't sound like a very positive interaction. And it wasn't. How would you interpret what I had said?
"Stop asking, buster, it ain't happenin'?"
"Look, NOP, this is as good as I'm going to give, learn to deal with it."
"I don't give a rip what you want, you aren't going to get it."
"I'm not a good lover, so don't ask me to be."
The answer is none of the above. I doubt anyone here could guess what underlay beneath it.
It was this.
I knew from early in our relationship that NOP had had quite a lot of sexual experience. I was pretty inexperienced, though not totally ignorant. I felt at a disadvantage when it came to sex AND it didn't help that I didn't have a clue on how to orgasm. I wanted to be sexual, so I faked orgasms, not in order to fool him but in order to protect myself from embarrassment for being a dud. Later on I confessed, repented and apologized and we went forward from there.
What I felt for years was that he had this image of sexuality that he wanted me to exude. I'm more the girl next door type. Aretha Franklin, as chubby and outside the norm of natural beauty as she is, can exude sexuality. I *felt" the undercurrent of expectation. And I *knew* that that sort of sexuality was not within my natural being.
I was not saying that I could not be sexual. Or that I couldn't be creative sexually. Or that I hated sex with him and hoped he would eventually get over it.
I was saying that I felt like I could never measure up and it left me with the sense that no matter how or how often we made love - that as long as I couldn't do the "sexy woman" that it was never good enough.
Now, if NOP and I can miscommunicate and misunderstand each other for so long over the assertion I made, I am firmly convinced that there are many permutations of meaning possible from MsZB's comment.
I have had good results in doing what MrsNOP is suggesting. I don't recall using those exact words or technique but I have basically stopped allowing the discussion to take place whereby he states that he is not good at something and that is that. He can either try to be good at it, or stop saying it.
There was a....falsity to our relationship when I would try to pump him up. His words were, after all, true and he and I both knew that they were. I was not doing any favors by responding the way I did.
In addition to that, there was a short period in the beginning of our marriage in which I was princess-ing all over the place and he used to tell me that it was the way it should be, etc. We both knew this was false and it did not do anything to help me or the marriage grow.
I believe that ZB's response keeps his wife stuck because it lets her off the hook. She hooks herself up into a position of potential change and he gently pulls her back down and essentially says, You are fine the way you are.
If he were to stop unhooking her, she might be inclined to do something different. There is something about your partner forcing you to grow up that is liberating. It also creates a sense of respect for your partner. Lying to someone--and having them accept it and say "there there, it's okay"--really does a number on how you view them.
I like MrsNOP's approach because it is both kind and gentle but forward-moving at the same time.
Yeah she says it so that she won't ever be expected to change, but that is not really the point right now. A little reciprocity is in order here and starting small may help her get accustomed to his body and to the idea of giving BACK.
What an interesting observation. Sometimes when you write, I am just glued to every word because I find it so fascinating.
I'm sure that MrHP feels similar. That he is just not your typical "alpha" male and will never measure up. The truth, Mrs, is that I am not particularly attracted to alpha males. Well, I'm attracted enough to them physically or whatever, but have a hard time in a relationship. So I want and like MrHP's brand of sexiness and aggression. But somewhere along the way, he started feeling awkward about showing this side of himself--I'm sure we both did things to contribute to this situation. (in fact, I can think of specific things I did to drive his aggression south but I am too embarrassed to print it)
Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I like his style of aggression. I do not and never have wanted alpha male type aggression. If you have any suggestions for how to communicate this--should the topic come up again for discussion--please do not hesitate to tell me what to do.
Again, thanks for sharing this. How interesting to see "the other side".
Incidentally, I am not sexy in the way you described either. I'm not particularly graceful in my body movements. If I had thought that my husband was referring to that kind of sexiness, I'd have been way intimidated myself.
HP & Mrs. NOP- I hear ya! What y'all are saying is possible-- that if ZB stops letting her off the hook, she may have to face her own sexual possibilities. I certainly agree that acting like everything is okay when it isn't is the first layer of concrete in that wall that separates you from your spouse.
However, what I'm saying is also possible... namely, that Mrs. ZB made this decision about who she is decades ago, is firmly entrenched in this kind of thinking about herself, and, as ZB pointed out (at least I think it was ZB) she knows he will not cheat and he is not going anywhere. What will be the consequences to her if she continues to refuse his invitation to grow?
You could be right, but I think we're getting ahead of ourselves if we wonder what her response would be.
So far, ZB *has* let her off the hook.
And so far, ZB has *not* given MrsZB some examples of simple things she could do to reciprocate.
He has resolved to do things differently. Let's see how that works.
Very often the roles in marriages become polarized - in some cases it may result in a fair division of household, parenting, or other labor. But if one partner takes all the responsibility for the sexual relationship AND the other doesn't reciprocate, then ultimately the partner in charge isn't happy.
MrZB needs to begin to communicate this to his W, along with some simple suggestions of things she could do.
Also, I think MrsNOP's suggestion that he tie it in with presenting a more normal attitude torwards sex to their daughters was good too.
DogLover
Quote: What will be the consequences to her if she continues to refuse his invitation to grow?
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
Quote: Incidentally, I am not sexy in the way you described either. I'm not particularly graceful in my body movements. If I had thought that my husband was referring to that kind of sexiness, I'd have been way intimidated myself.
This is interesting because I have sort of the opposite problem myself, at least when it comes to "style". I think my H would prefer it if I concerned myself with looking pretty and sweet, "girl next-doorish" as MrsNOP described herself, but this just isn't me. I feel all repressed when I dress this way, like I've just signed up with the Amish or something. My natural style runs the gamut from slob (overalls, no makeup, hair in bun with pencils sticking out) to urban babydoll slut (flip-flops, high pony tail, low-rise training pants, tight white t-shirt with witty saying, giant silver earrings) and my H doesn't appreciate either of these looks or anything in between. I bought two new outfits last week. One of the outfits was definitely more preppy than my usual style. My H told me it looked "nice" on me. The other outfit was definitely more sexy and I thought it looked much more attractive on me, but my H didn't even notice it even though I was definitely getting some attention from the general public when I wore it out and about.
OTOH, I'm actually pretty shy in real life. I don't do or say sexually provocative things in a purposeful manner in the course of my daily life. Though my true nature does come through I know. For instance, the other day I was at the market absent-mindedly feeling all the peaches for ripeness and a man turned his head upside down to leer at me from the other side of the pile of peaches. I prefer to think he was attracted to my sensual nature but it may have been the tight white t-shirt combined with my new 360 degrees of support bra that got his attention.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Anyway, what I wanted to say is that I like his style of aggression. I do not and never have wanted alpha male type aggression. If you have any suggestions for how to communicate this--should the topic come up again for discussion--please do not hesitate to tell me what to do.
HP, I don't have a specific answer to this. Our process (as usual) involved a lot of conversations. I think as time goes by and you express to him and build upon what you do like in him, the other tends to fade away or at least be supplanted.
If you feel inclined and a good time reveals itself, you might let him know what you think now of what was said and done then. How it might have left him with the wrong impression. And what your true thoughts and opinions of him now are.
Quote:
Again, thanks for sharing this. How interesting to see "the other side".
Incidentally, I am not sexy in the way you described either. I'm not particularly graceful in my body movements. If I had thought that my husband was referring to that kind of sexiness, I'd have been way intimidated myself.
That was probably part of the problem. I was substituting my assumptions, preconceptions, ideas and insecurities on what that might be. I think I pictured something in my head as the equivalent of Rita Hayworth and/or Sara Mclachlan - something conjured up by Hollywood and seductive music, I guess.
Interestingly enough, I read an interview on Hayworth in which she bemoaned her relationships. She iterated that every man that fell in love with her, fell in love with the sexy woman she portrayed in her movies - and what they actually ended up with was her. And they were inevitably disappointed and the relationship soured.
Mr. HP, if he has something in mind, probably finds it so nebulous that he couldn't describe it, can't put his finger on it and if you can't pin it down accurately, how can you ever give expression to it? Hence being left with the feeling that you can never measure up.
In our case, what it actually boiled down to was what you have been wanting from your spouse - obvious evidence that he was wanted. The sense of there being some impossible to attain goal has faded somewhat as we have continued working on us.
I tried to post in the thread “actions and words”, but somehow it wouldn’t let me.
Since I found some of you here, I’ll tell you here thank you for all of your words of real, struggling wisdom on the very day I needed to hear them.
I am in the midst of a spiral of separation (divorce?) pain, confusion, trying to understand. Stumbled (coincidence?) on DB book in a used book store, and had the weekend to devote to reading and thinking. A few weeks ago I thought I’d seen a link to this website when searching for practical legal info to help me figure out where I am since my H left. Didn’t pay much attention to it until today, and then started to search the boards.
Choc, I am in awe of what you are doing, and of your willingness to share in the “actions and words” thread. Though I am not your W, and my life and responses are very different, you are articulating so many things I think my H is feeling, and only rarely and ineffectively communicating. You’ve given me so much hope, and maybe I can give you some insight in return.
I believe there’s a better way than to give up. Thanks for giving me that bit of hope, all of you, Michele and posters.
I was thinking more on this topic, Mrs. and I remembered my H's reply when I asked him why he thought I was sexy. (I was trying to find out what he liked, not fishing for a compliment) He said, quite simply, You like sex.
At the time I thought he just had not given it enough thought to really flesh out that sentence but now I think that that's really all there is to it! For all of us!
The chicks need to know that their men want them and will go after them, if necessary. The fellas need to know that their wives want them.
That's it. That all there is to "sexiness". Everything else is just layers or differences or preferences or variations.
When MrHP says I'm sexy cause I like sex, it just doesn't matter to him that he also has called me "Kramer" (from Seinfeld) a zillion times because of my grace and charm--to him, I am sexy because I like sex and I can turn into a pretty interesting lady in between the sheets.
So I think I could convey to him what my idea of aggression is by talking about what HIS idea of sexiness is. It's really very simple--sexy is going after something that you want. This could be an elaborate setup with lingerie and rose petals or it could be a grab at the kitchen sink or it could be a peck that lingers. It's the intent and not so much the action.
