ZB and all other HD people trying to get your LD spouse to talk about sex:
Now this IS baby steps but, I think, worth trying. It's just like back scratching...You could learn a lot about their preferences if only you could get them to tell you these simple moves when you ML:
Higher Lower Faster Slower More to the right More to the left Harder Softer JUST RIGHT!
Quote: MsZB doesn't have to decide whether she wants to be a good lover OR sexy, she just has to decide whether or not she wants to act upon ZB's request.
Acting upon ZB's request is an act of love and care. By leaving out the "good lover or sexier" feeling aspect of it, you eliminate the aspect of asking her to change.
OK, I guess I'm kind of dumb and I don't get the difference between asking your W to do something she doesn't want to do and asking her to change and to be someone that she is not. Mrs. ZB has come to the conclusion that she is a bad lover. It's not just about the choices she has made about what sexual activities she will engage in. It is also about the feelings that she has about those activities. If my partner enjoys giving BJs, she might give me one without loving me all that much. If she thinks they are revolting, she would have to love me an awful lot before she would go that far. So Mrs. ZB's feelings about sex aren't trivial. I get the impression that she feels like she is a bad lover, not just because she is unwilling to try different things, but because the whole enterprise just creeps her out.
You say that "(a)cting upon ZB's request is an act of love and care", but couldn't Mrs. ZB easily turn that on it's head? Couldn't she legitimately respond, "Bube, you know how much the thought of giving oral really creeps me out. If you really loved me, you wouldn't press the issue." This is where Mrs. ZB's feelings are absolutely central. I imagine (I don't really know) that she may be deeply ashamed of her body, of her performance as a wife, and of her femininity. These issues were probably there long before ZB got there. There is a possibility that Mrs. ZB can do more in the bedroom as an act of love and caring, but until she is capable of confronting this cracked image of herself, won't she just be faking it? If she never learns to get in touch with that part of her that is open to enjoying her own body, would she really ever become an equal sexual partner?
WB, when your wife says she is a bad lover, instead of helping to bail her out of her self-defeating thoughts, why don't you try to lead her to exploring those feelings? Maybe you could respond "What makes you think you're a bad lover? How does that make you feel? What is going through your head when I start touching you sexually?" Try to lead her to express the feelings she is having about herself. Don't try to talk her out of her feelings. They are legit. If she says "I'm fat", rather than jumping in and saying "No your not" or something lame like "That means there is more of you to love ," you could respond "I bet that's really painful to have these thoughts about yourself."
Gee, it sounds like I'm asking you to be her shrink. You might not be in a good position to do this yourself. She could probably use some individual couciling. But you can help in your conversations with her if you help her go through her negative feelings instead of avoiding them.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Quote: OK, I guess I'm kind of dumb and I don't get the difference between asking your W to do something she doesn't want to do and asking her to change and to be someone that she is not.
If my husband wants me to hold up the lawnmower while he checks the belt - I do so, and you can well imagine that it's not high on the list of things I want to do. And when I do hold the lawnmower up, there is *no* impact or effect of changing *me*. And I don't have to wait until I'm feeling particular "mechanical" to do so.
Does that help?
Quote:
Mrs. ZB has come to the conclusion that she is a bad lover. It's not just about the choices she has made about what sexual activities she will engage in.
Actually, none of us has a clue as to what she may mean when she repeats that phrase. I don't think ZB knows either. I personally think it is a way of easing some subterranean nagging guilt she may be twigging that she's not being very fair to her husband. And it is probably also used to shortcircuit ZB's possible expressed unhappiness that she got off and left him dangling.
Quote:
It is also about the feelings that she has about those activities. If my partner enjoys giving BJs, she might give me one without loving me all that much. If she thinks they are revolting, she would have to love me an awful lot before she would go that far. So Mrs. ZB's feelings about sex aren't trivial. I get the impression that she feels like she is a bad lover, not just because she is unwilling to try different things, but because the whole enterprise just creeps her out.
I wouldn't suggest that ZB go right for the gold. That's why I suggested babysteps that would get her accustomed to ZB actually having some preference or input on the sexual activity AND that it be something that focused primarily on *him*. That might be a 5-minute massage. It might be a few minutes of caressing him. It might be him lying still while she kisses his face. Whatever light, low-demand sexual something he might enjoy.
I don't care how squicked out you (rhetorical you) might be about penises getting close to your mouth, I find the whole concept of having your husband between your legs for 45 minutes while you reciprocate diddly squat 'cause you've got a few squeemies to be a childish, self-serving attitude that has little place in anyone of adult years.
Quote: There is a possibility that Mrs. ZB can do more in the bedroom as an act of love and caring, but until she is capable of confronting this cracked image of herself, won't she just be faking it? If she never learns to get in touch with that part of her that is open to enjoying her own body, would she really ever become an equal sexual partner?
What is fake about caressing your spouse? Folks, you don't have to have some sort of screaming sexual drive to be f*cking kind and generous in bed. What is fake about attempting to pleasure your spouse, even if your tingly bits aren't all throbby?
How does she learn to get in touch with some inner part of her? (We'll ignore the reality that she may have no interest in doing so.) Must ZB wait until some dove of enlightenment alights upon MsZB? Her chances of getting in touch with that inner part that might enjoy some variety is only going to be increased with actually attempting it.
How do kids learn how to play piano? They do not search for their inner musician. They play scales. And they play easy melodies. And so on.
Becoming a decent, reciprocating lover involves engaging in decent, reciprocating loving behaviors and actions.
Having a high drive doesn't mean that you automatically have a great deal of interest in pleasing your partner. Having a low drive doesn't automatically mean that you can't ever please your partner.
Quote: WB, when your wife says she is a bad lover, instead of helping to bail her out of her self-defeating thoughts, why don't you try to lead her to exploring those feelings? Maybe you could respond "What makes you think you're a bad lover? How does that make you feel? What is going through your head when I start touching you sexually?" Try to lead her to express the feelings she is having about herself. Don't try to talk her out of her feelings. They are legit.
Let me tell you right up front, I *hate* these types of questions. If your child comes home and announces that he sucks at math, discussing his feelings about sucking at math isn't going to get him to know his multiplication tables any better. And when you see the F on his report card, there's no need to deny that his feelings are legit.
But God help us, we aren't slaves to our feelings. If little Elmer will make the effort to study and practice what he has studied, he will soon find that he sucks less at math.
"I'm a bad lover."
"Well, honey, I wouldn't say that. You know what though? next time we make love, I want us to try XYZ position. It might make us feel a little goofy, but I want to try it and see how it goes."
or
"Honey, I wouldn't say that. I have been thinking that I would love to switch things around a bit next time. I've been thinking about XYZ, etc.".
That way her feelings aren't denied or minimized and the opportunity for progress might increase.
Any "fervor" heard is not at you, Solid - it's at the cultural idea that we must follow where our feelings lead us or that we must "feel" X to act or express X.
ZB, My sitch was less dramatic than your W's but nevertheless my H and I understood for a number of years that it took me longer to O than it took him. My H was very attentive to me and wanted to bring me to O before actual IC. It began to seem to me that that was just how it was (and without any conversations about it with other women, I assumed that my experience might be typical) - it was easy for him to O and harder for me so it was natural that "we" ie H would spend more time on foreplay. I think it was both dense and self-centered of me. But I think that my H helped perpetuate the routine too by not saying anything. He did enjoy arousing me and it was arousing for him as well but still it was lopsided. Perhaps it was as he aged and his erections became less dependable that it finally became important to him to assert himself. I can't turn back the clock, but wish I had understood more about this earlier. As it is now, we have a much more reciprocal relationship. I understand that it is not so automatic for him - he has needs too. Now we often take turns being the first to come, because if it takes too long for me, he may get tired out and it may not happen at all for him. And the timing of things is just the tip of the iceberg. Although he can usually come with plain vanilla sex he would enjoy spicier sex, and sometimes, these days, the spice may be necessary to get him over the top. How can I not try harder now? He has given so much to me over the years. It does no good to dwell on the past, but it would have been better for both of us to have started this process earlier. We would have had more time to enjoy the journey.
ZB, the bottom line is you gotta be more straight with your W. But start with baby steps.
DogLover
Quote: Maybe it’s fishing for the compliment that I inevitably give her when I reassure her that she is a good lover when I answer with the, “That’s OK, Honey” that MrsNOP mentioned. All I can say for sure is that the responses I’ve given in the past haven’t resulted in any change. So this looks like another golden opportunity to employ Michele’s advice: if what you’re doing isn’t working…
Zufriedengestellter Bube
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
Quote: THe books don't help much simply because she's way to embarrassed to even consider opening them, even if they are in line with the religious teachings.
I take it there were no marriage consultations before marriage? When my daughter got married a couple of years ago, the pastor who led the ceremony met with them several times to counsel them. Sex, finances, children, budgets, entertainment, work ethics, spirituality - were all topics considered.
Some people, for religious reasons, do turn away from screen portrayals of sex, and avoid public discussions of sex. Folks that I know who do this aren't embarrassed as much as they are following through with the deeply held belief that such is wrong and they shouldn't participate. Does your wife think these things are "wrong" and therefore should be avoided?
I can understand how discussing your own sexuality or specific sex even with your spouse can have a certain sense of embarrassed vulnerability for some.
But, I'm having a hard time understanding how reading in the privacy of your own home, church sponsored information about marital sex can be "embarrassing". Or how discussing sex in general with your spouse is overwhelming to the point that it must be avoided.
Has she been embarrassed about being pregnant in public? Embarrassed and refused to discuss birthing and all the exposure that entails?
Quote:
Still trying to figure out a way to help her over her hangups about sex. I'm all ears if you have ideas. Mrs.NOP? Right now I am trying to encourage her to tell me what she thinks of when she thinks of sex or what she'd like to try different, etc. So far very little response other than a hint that she does have those thoughts occasionally...that alone is a major breakthrough folks!
My first thought is that getting her to talk specifically about her sexual thoughts/feelings should probably come secondary to being able to talk to her about sex in the general.
Talking about sex in general isn't difficult for me. For instance, the recent research indicating that female ability to orgasm during intercourse has a strong genetic factor to it, as opposed to it being cultural or nurture. It's science, it's news, it's not something that I'm having to pull from my inner core. I take it that your wife would not be able to chat about something as generic as that?
Talking about sex specific to *me* is still hard. The discomfort doesn't come necessarily for the topic, as much as it comes from the feeling that I am revealing myself and that is not something I do easily. Sometimes it's because I don't have an answer to the question. For ex. if asked specifically "what are your sexual fantasies" - my discomfort level is going to skyrocket. I could come up with *one* very vague something from my teenage years - but then I'm going to feel like the kid who finds himself in a class he never attended, just as the tests are being handed out.
So, with that in mind, I don't see how pursuing a "tell me your specific sexual thoughts" is going to be conducive if she can't even discuss sex in general.
Since you have children, it might be a good generic place to start by appealing to her that the two of you as parents have a God-placed responsibility to prepare your children for marriage. And you two of you have to "research" it.
Quote: W will not MB. She finds the whole concept distasteful. I believe “sick” is the word I’ve heard her use. The same goes for touching herself during IC. Touching yourself is sick and twisted. Only sick-os and perverts do that. She does initiate once in a while. I can’t really give you any hard numbers though. It’s probably less than 25%, but that’s just a guess.
Have you ever expressed your disagreement with this opinion? (Not her idea that it is distasteful to her, but that it is perverted or twisted.)
Even though neither of us has confided in my mother, my mother has expressed concern to me that W would pass along her “weird ideas about sex” to our daughters. So just comments made in her presence have obviously clued my mother in that something’s not quite right.
That's interesting. Well if your mom is picking up weirdness, I can imagine that your children have as well since they spend a great deal more time with your wife than your mom does.
Of course, this indicates that your wife does talk and/or express opinions about sex publically - it just appears that it's primarily in a negative sense.
You know that's not a good thing. Have you ever heard her do this? What was the sitch and what was said or inplied?
Mrs. NOP, I think your reasoning is sound, as usual, but my point about Mrs. ZB declaring herself to be a bad lover was NOT about her feelings but about her definition of herself and what actions might fit within that definition. It's the way some people say they can't cook, they are no good with computers, they hate math, they can't sew. People who make those declarations are also saying, don't ask me to cook, fix the computer, solve for 'x' in this equation, or hem this dress.
If this were a brand new story, I'd say to send ZB off with instructions to accept his W's feelings, BUT also make clear requests about what he wants her to DO, and then report back.
It's my understanding that ZB has alread made those requests and W has turned him down. She turns him down with the "excuse" that she's a bad lover, but my point is that she has no desire to be a good lover no matter how or how many times he asks her. And if you follow that up with, "She's being extremely selfish and inconsiderate in refusing to do even a simple action to show her love for ZB," I think everyone here would say that's exactly right.
Again, it's like someone saying, "You're such a good cook and I'm such a bad cook... AND I like never having to cook and knowing that you will never expect me to cook because I have made it clear that cooking is not something I ever want to put on my resume."
Quote: It's the way some people say they can't cook, they are no good with computers, they hate math, they can't sew. People who make those declarations are also saying, don't ask me to cook, fix the computer, solve for 'x' in this equation, or hem this dress.
Lil. I see it every week with customers. There are several goups of I am no good's. The first are too anxious at the moment. The second group don't see the logic or patterns. They only see the big scary monster. The thire group does not want to learn to improve like you said, so they don't get asked to work on the project. The forth group feels they have too much to do now and it should be someone elses job. They don't get paid enough to do something new.
Prior to college I had some of groups 1 and 2 mostly because I saw the elephant and not the thin slices of trunk on the serving platter when someone said "here, eat this." Babysteps and seeing the pattern helped me see college and other challanges doable tasks. I guess I was motivated to do group 3 and 4 because that was what I thought was the right thing to do.
The I an no good at X is a common saying for BB, just like other LDW's. I need to work out a plan to say to BB w/o being or acting agressive/hostile/pushy.
," you could respond "I bet that's really painful to have these thoughts about yourself."
