Quote: OK, I guess I'm kind of dumb and I don't get the difference between asking your W to do something she doesn't want to do and asking her to change and to be someone that she is not.
If my husband wants me to hold up the lawnmower while he checks the belt - I do so, and you can well imagine that it's not high on the list of things I want to do. And when I do hold the lawnmower up, there is *no* impact or effect of changing *me*. And I don't have to wait until I'm feeling particular "mechanical" to do so.
Does that help?
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Mrs. ZB has come to the conclusion that she is a bad lover. It's not just about the choices she has made about what sexual activities she will engage in.
Actually, none of us has a clue as to what she may mean when she repeats that phrase. I don't think ZB knows either. I personally think it is a way of easing some subterranean nagging guilt she may be twigging that she's not being very fair to her husband. And it is probably also used to shortcircuit ZB's possible expressed unhappiness that she got off and left him dangling.
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It is also about the feelings that she has about those activities. If my partner enjoys giving BJs, she might give me one without loving me all that much. If she thinks they are revolting, she would have to love me an awful lot before she would go that far. So Mrs. ZB's feelings about sex aren't trivial. I get the impression that she feels like she is a bad lover, not just because she is unwilling to try different things, but because the whole enterprise just creeps her out.
I wouldn't suggest that ZB go right for the gold. That's why I suggested babysteps that would get her accustomed to ZB actually having some preference or input on the sexual activity AND that it be something that focused primarily on *him*. That might be a 5-minute massage. It might be a few minutes of caressing him. It might be him lying still while she kisses his face. Whatever light, low-demand sexual something he might enjoy.
I don't care how squicked out you (rhetorical you) might be about penises getting close to your mouth, I find the whole concept of having your husband between your legs for 45 minutes while you reciprocate diddly squat 'cause you've got a few squeemies to be a childish, self-serving attitude that has little place in anyone of adult years.
Quote: There is a possibility that Mrs. ZB can do more in the bedroom as an act of love and caring, but until she is capable of confronting this cracked image of herself, won't she just be faking it? If she never learns to get in touch with that part of her that is open to enjoying her own body, would she really ever become an equal sexual partner?
What is fake about caressing your spouse? Folks, you don't have to have some sort of screaming sexual drive to be f*cking kind and generous in bed. What is fake about attempting to pleasure your spouse, even if your tingly bits aren't all throbby?
How does she learn to get in touch with some inner part of her? (We'll ignore the reality that she may have no interest in doing so.) Must ZB wait until some dove of enlightenment alights upon MsZB? Her chances of getting in touch with that inner part that might enjoy some variety is only going to be increased with actually attempting it.
How do kids learn how to play piano? They do not search for their inner musician. They play scales. And they play easy melodies. And so on.
Becoming a decent, reciprocating lover involves engaging in decent, reciprocating loving behaviors and actions.
Having a high drive doesn't mean that you automatically have a great deal of interest in pleasing your partner. Having a low drive doesn't automatically mean that you can't ever please your partner.
Quote: WB, when your wife says she is a bad lover, instead of helping to bail her out of her self-defeating thoughts, why don't you try to lead her to exploring those feelings? Maybe you could respond "What makes you think you're a bad lover? How does that make you feel? What is going through your head when I start touching you sexually?" Try to lead her to express the feelings she is having about herself. Don't try to talk her out of her feelings. They are legit.
Let me tell you right up front, I *hate* these types of questions. If your child comes home and announces that he sucks at math, discussing his feelings about sucking at math isn't going to get him to know his multiplication tables any better. And when you see the F on his report card, there's no need to deny that his feelings are legit.
But God help us, we aren't slaves to our feelings. If little Elmer will make the effort to study and practice what he has studied, he will soon find that he sucks less at math.
"I'm a bad lover."
"Well, honey, I wouldn't say that. You know what though? next time we make love, I want us to try XYZ position. It might make us feel a little goofy, but I want to try it and see how it goes."
or
"Honey, I wouldn't say that. I have been thinking that I would love to switch things around a bit next time. I've been thinking about XYZ, etc.".
That way her feelings aren't denied or minimized and the opportunity for progress might increase.
Any "fervor" heard is not at you, Solid - it's at the cultural idea that we must follow where our feelings lead us or that we must "feel" X to act or express X.
