Quote: As a general rule, an O when the vagina is empty feels deeper and stronger, I guess because the contractions can contract farther since nothing is blocking them.
Wow, that's really interesting that you feel that way LP, because I feel almost exactly the opposite. I prefer orgasms with something (preferably my H's cock ) in the vagina because then it seems to me that I have something to sort of push against which allows me to have greater muscular involvement in my orgasm and makes it feel more whole body to me. Clit only orgasms are more like having your stereo adjusted to high treble, while the vaginal/muscular and clit orgasm has more of a bass boom. Of course this may just be a personal preference along the lines of liking Rap better than Opera. Vaginal only orgasms, IMO, are hard to achieve and really not that great, sort of like hearing music underwater.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Also, although MrsZB's case is more extreme than most, it is true that for women who were growing up more than 30-40 years ago, it was more common for women to believe that men should be the good lovers because after all they could just get an erection and O practically by just thinking about sex, which they did all the time anyway, whereas a woman needed foreplay from an experienced lover.
So, for a woman of your W's generation (which is pretty much mine as well), she may feel not only that you are a great lover and she is a terrible one, but on some level may feel that's OK. But times have changed. Women are expected to play a more active role and many do.
So you could say to her that you understand that she may have grown up thinking that men should make all the effort and she is not alone in this, but it is time to begin to change her way of thinking.
Most men start to learn about sex and learn how to arouse their partners when they are teenagers. They have to learn how to initiate and how to deal with occasional rejection. They are motivated to do so because there is either a personal payoff for them and/or pleasure in pleasuring their partners.
She may be learning these skills much later in life, but that doesn't mean she can't do it. No one is born knowing what to do. It's just that those who are HD are more motivated to learn how earlier and males have always been more encouraged to perfect their sexual skills.
I guess what I'm trying to say (I'm not nearly as concise as MrsNOP) is that you can express some understanding that she is not alone in feeling that her LM skills are below par, but that she can do something about it and doing so will benefit both of you and your M.
Good luck! Doglover
Quote:
Hopefully, little changes like making a suggestion the next time she professes to be a bad lover will gradually change things some more. Time will tell.
Zufriedengestellter Bube
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
ZB, I can't imagine any reputable C discussing one patient with another, doubly so if they know each other. That would be a serious breach of ethics. Your mom probably just picked it up from being around her for a zillion years.
(Recently my mom told me that she had been keeping a big, deep, dark secret all these years. I got kind of worried and excited at the same time... was she going to tell me that my dad was not my biological father? Finally I pried it out of her: she said she had never enjoyed sex. I didn't tell her, but for anyone who lived under our roof, that was NO secret! )
I really liked Mrs. NOP's comments about when your W says she is a terrible lover, you tell her specific things she can do that will make her a better lover (like rubbing your back)... BUT
Here's the (excuse the expression) BIG BUT...
Are we sure she wants to become or be considered a Good Lover?
That's the conundrum that Mrs. NOP's excellent suggestion discloses: I think your W is saying "ZB is a good lover and I'm a terrible lover, but that's who I am and I don't plan to change."
Does she see sexiness as a desirable quality in a woman? I don't think she considers being a Good Lover something a woman should aspire to. If even your mom thinks her ideas about sex are weird, I'll wager she doesn't want to be sexy OR a good lover.
Picture a situation where a tomboyish girl and a pretty-in-pink girlie girl get into a fight. They roll around on the ground pulling each other's hair. Finally, they break it up. The tomboy says to the girlie girl, "Wow! You are a really good fighter!" And the other girl twirls around in a huff and stomps off, snorting over her shoulder, "Well you may think it's a good thing for a girl to be a good fighter, but I DON'T! I will never fight with you again, and you can't make me!"
(I'll address the weight/body size issue in a new thread.)
Quote: then it seems to me that I have something to sort of push against which allows me to have greater muscular involvement in my orgasm and makes it feel more whole body to me.
JJ, Pushing against something feels "sooo" good. I imagine you saw this in your H movements too.
FYI, MrsBube will be 48 next month. The description of his W posted by GGB fits my W perfectly. She will do it, but she won’t talk about it.
Even though we have only daughters, I was the one who had the mother-daughter sex talk with them. W's family simply doesn't discuss anything remotely related to sex. W's menarche occurred at ten years of age and she didn’t have a clue what was happening. The school nurse said nothing, and even though K-12 were in the same building and the nurse obviously had feminine hygiene supplies, all she did was call W’s mother to come and get her. MIL said nothing, took W home, took her into the bathroom, opened the cabinet, pointed to a box of pads, said, “Use these”, and left the room. W was a little better, but basically treated daughter number one the same way when her menarche came at eleven. As I said, she may do it, but she won’t talk about it.
Zbube, I hope you are smoothing over her weird attitude about sex with your D's cause I would sure hate to have them grow up and experience the obvious pain and awkwardness that your wife goes through, with their own husbands.
I know that was my number one motivation, aside from the obvious motivator, in attacking this situation. I could not tolerate the thought of my daughter being more used to, and comfortable with the idea of her dad giving her his attention and affection, to the exclusion of his wife. I wanted her to grow up seeing us being affectionate with each other and knowing that we had the hots for each other. Otherwise I felt that we would be failing her.
ZB, I think yo are right, you are married to my W. MrsGGB's mom did the same thing. MrsGGBs sex education consisted of her mom giving her some 1950's era clinical sex education book. W never opened it, just threw it out.
Quote: Your mom probably just picked it up from being around her for a zillion years.
I suspect you’re right. Like you, I can’t imagine the C talking about W to my mom.
Quote: I think your W is saying "ZB is a good lover and I'm a terrible lover, but that's who I am and I don't plan to change."
I think you may well be onto something with that too. W has made that statement many times, but has never shown any inclination to address any perceived disparity. But who knows, maybe she keeps saying she’s a bad lover as a way of asking for help in becoming a better lover without having to so anything as overt as asking. Remember, she doesn’t talk about sex. Maybe it’s an expression of low self-esteem: instead of “I’m OK – you’re OK”, it’s “You’re OK – I’m not”. Maybe it’s fishing for the compliment that I inevitably give her when I reassure her that she is a good lover when I answer with the, “That’s OK, Honey” that MrsNOP mentioned. All I can say for sure is that the responses I’ve given in the past haven’t resulted in any change. So this looks like another golden opportunity to employ Michele’s advice: if what you’re doing isn’t working…
I try. I too, worry about the D’s growing up as sexually dysfunctional as their mother. It’s kind of tricky though. There’s a really fine line there I’m trying to walk. They obviously see the sex-averse behavior GGB so accurately described. They hear her complain about any reference to sex that comes up in movies or TV shows they see together. I’m also appalled by the immorality so routinely portrayed in the media, so I have to somehow convey that sex isn’t inherently bad or dirty to try to counteract what they get from W, without showing acceptance of anything that violates our moral standards. That’s not hard in a frank discussion of sex, but it is hard in the day-to-day context that they see W’s negativity.
I know that this isn’t a child rearing BB, but since the prosecution has opened the door (apologies to HD), I do want to follow up here. A couple of weeks ago D17 had a friend spend the night. D17 and this friend, even in this day of blogs, Xanga sites, and text messages, apparently write notes to each other at school. But rather than writing notes, they have written convos in a notebook that they pass back and forth. It seems that W found the notebook and proceeded to read it. What she discovered shocked her.
I didn’t read it and W didn’t give me any details, but apparently a lot of what they were writing was about boys and sex. D17 wrote about x-bf and what they did. I didn’t get the details (and actually felt kind of like I was invading her privacy just hearing about it), but W said that they did “pretty much everything except IC”. The only detail she told me was that D17 didn’t give him head. She said that D17 “licked it” and said that “it was gross”. I don’t know where I’m going with this, but I’m just relating it as it pertains to W passing on her attitudes. Comment or not – as you wish.
Quote: I really liked Mrs. NOP's comments about when your W says she is a terrible lover, you tell her specific things she can do that will make her a better lover (like rubbing your back)... BUT
Here's the (excuse the expression) BIG BUT...
Are we sure she wants to become or be considered a Good Lover?
That's the conundrum that Mrs. NOP's excellent suggestion discloses: I think your W is saying "ZB is a good lover and I'm a terrible lover, but that's who I am and I don't plan to change."
Does she see sexiness as a desirable quality in a woman? I don't think she considers being a Good Lover something a woman should aspire to. If even your mom thinks her ideas about sex are weird, I'll wager she doesn't want to be sexy OR a good lover.
But this is moving the goal post from a specific request that MsZB can choose to act upon to a discussion of feelings. MsZB doesn't have to decide whether she wants to be a good lover OR sexy, she just has to decide whether or not she wants to act upon ZB's request.
Acting upon ZB's request is an act of love and care. By leaving out the "good lover or sexier" feeling aspect of it, you eliminate the aspect of asking her to change.
Asking her to touch him before he touches her (for ex.) has no more impact on her sense of self, than if he had asked her to brush off the back of his jacket before he helps her on with her coat.
It's not about feelings at this point, it is about choices.
) in the vagina because then it seems to me that I have something to sort of push against which allows me to have greater muscular involvement in my orgasm and makes it feel more whole body to me. Clit only orgasms are more like having your stereo adjusted to high treble, while the vaginal/muscular and clit orgasm has more of a bass boom. Of course this may just be a personal preference along the lines of liking Rap better than Opera. Vaginal only orgasms, IMO, are hard to achieve and really not that great, sort of like hearing music underwater. 
)
I imagine you saw this in your H movements too.