OK it sounds as thought there are a lot of positives in your M, and your problems are mostly very specific to your sexual R.
In a way, that should make it easier because 1) you should have a reservoir of good will and good feelings between you based on the rest of your R and 2) you know exactly the aspect of your R that you need to work on.
However, it is hard because your W has some major hangups re sex. I think MrsNOP's suggestions that you should be very specific in your requests to her are good. This should be coupled with an explanation of how her lack of initiative and lack of attending to your pleasure, makes you feel. Though if she is narcissistic, she may not empathize with your hurt feelings. Regardless of whether she empathizes, she needs to understand how important this is to you.
I don't think it is right for her to view the descriptions of you as a "good lover" and herself as a "terrible lover" as permanent and unchangeable. It seems to me that that is a copout on her part.
Given that you feel she has come a long way, has in her way tried to step up to the plate, and that your sexual R has improved greatly over what it used to be, you may want to take very small steps, but take them nevertheless.
Also, you haven't said if you and your W are followers of any particular religious faith. If so, or in any case, perhaps there are some marital counselling tapes, videos, or books which might help both of you, especially your W, and might fit with your W's conservative views of what is OK to do. GonnaGoBlind might have suggestions on this.
Doglover
Quote: Doglover,
Where to begin…
W will not MB. She finds the whole concept distasteful. I believe “sick” is the word I’ve heard her use. The same goes for touching herself during IC. Touching yourself is sick and twisted. Only sick-os and perverts do that. She does initiate once in a while. I can’t really give you any hard numbers though. It’s probably less than 25%, but that’s just a guess.
I know that this doesn’t sound true, but we really don’t have a lot of problems in our R other than sex. We already do many, many things together and are best friends. We have joy. We have fun. We love getting rid of the kids and having time to ourselves. We’re frequently physically affectionate: hugging, holding hands, walking arm-in-arm, kissing, etc. ...
Zufriedengestellter Bube
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
You have my sympathy. Switch the Cheetos for a bag of Cheerioats.
Quote: She assured me that she was going to lose weight
I now it's beyond your control to monitor her.
BB said she was going to do the time, reps on her equipment and was not going to worry about the weight. It worked better (more time using the machines) when the scale was put in the garage. I said how much tighter her butt felt after BB faithfully used the equipment for 2 weeks. (Hint)
For a while BB's disapointment that the weight was not coming off due to the scale registering the same weight, BB decided her body was using up fat and turning it into muscel, hence the no weight loss.
Using my example, do you think Mre ZB would see the benefit of using the treadmill for 30 minuets a day?
One lady I knew, said she saw every high calorie food, not as food, but time on the treadmill (100 calories = so many minuets of walking). That cured her Krispy Kreme Doughnut habit fast.
ZB and all. So many of the problems are common, so some of the solutions should be too? Although this is ZB thread, I am picking up ideas here too.
ZB, I was wondering the very same thing Actually, my thought was that my W and yours are long lost sisters or something. MrsGGB is a bit taller, she's 5'9 and is currently about 215lbs (she'd kill me if she knew I divulged her weight)
DL, THe books don't help much simply because she's way to embarrassed to even consider opening them, even if they are in line with the religious teachings.
Still trying to figure out a way to help her over her hangups about sex. I'm all ears if you have ideas. Mrs.NOP? Right now I am trying to encourage her to tell me what she thinks of when she thinks of sex or what she'd like to try different, etc. So far very little response other than a hint that she does have those thoughts occasionally...that alone is a major breakthrough folks!
Quote: Still trying to figure out a way to help her over her hangups about sex. I'm all ears if you have ideas. Mrs.NOP? Right now I am trying to encourage her to tell me what she thinks of when she thinks of sex or what she'd like to try different, etc. So far very little response other than a hint that she does have those thoughts occasionally...that alone is a major breakthrough folks!
Something to ponder since you have children is whether or not you want your children experiencing the same difficulty that you do with this topic. I think we would see our mamma bear gene kick in if we thought about our own daughters being this negatively impacted in their future marriages.
I'm a firm believer that responsible parents have to push through their own personal hangups, whatever they might be, in order to not embue their children with a butt-load of unnecessary baggage.
Does she refuse to discuss sex at all? I mean sex in the generic sense, not sex as it pertains to your own relationship.
We've spent countless hours and literally tens of thousands of dollars on C's. The bottom line is that W won't talk about sex. She has stopped seeing two different C's (one male and one female) when they told her that she had to address the sex issues. Her explanation to me was the same in both cases, "There's nothing more (s)he can do for me."
I'll admit that we haven't talked much about it in years, but I haven't ever seen anything change as a result of talking. The transition from no IC to twice a year occurred during counseling just after I ended an EA. I think she was afraid that I would have a PA if I got no sex at home. I can’t explain the sudden and so far enduring change from twice a year to once a week. I even had a thread last summer wherein I tried to come up with a way to question her about what changed or to come up with an explanation on my own. The general consensus and the actual result was that I quit trying to explain it and just enjoy it.
Hopefully, little changes like making a suggestion the next time she professes to be a bad lover will gradually change things some more. Time will tell.
Quote: No. That’s where I worried about appearing to be portraying myself as some kind of saint. I do/did it out of a genuine desire to bring her pleasure. Reciprocation would be nice, but it wasn’t and still isn’t the motivation. The motivation is that I love her and want to please her
I really think we often shoot ourselves in the foot communication wise. The above is an example of that. I understand the fear of hurting someone you love. Truly I do. But there is a place for *honest* communication done in kindness.
Honey, I've been thinking about your concerns about not being a good lover. You know what I would really enjoy next time we make love? I would love it, if…
I like that. I even think I could do that. I just need to come up with something to put after the “if” that I really would like but that won’t push too hard. I know I couldn’t ask for a BJ, or to watch her MB, or anything that she presently believes to be too extreme. I readily acknowledge that we may never get to something like those, but I’m sure I can come up with something a little different. Maybe the starfish…
Baby steps. I would tend to encourage something that would cause her to have to concentrate on YOU for a short period of time. Because I think there needs to be tiny shift of emphasis off her and toward you and your pleasure and/or desires. But, that's just my leanings, you fill in the blank with your own.
Even though neither of us has confided in my mother, my mother has expressed concern to me that W would pass along her “weird ideas about sex” to our daughters. So just comments made in her presence have obviously clued my mother in that something’s not quite right. Either that, or our C mentioned it to her. My mother was seeing the same C and I know that he had the same concern. I can’t imagine him talking about our problems to my mother, but I suppose it is remotely possible.
Mrs NOP (sorry about the hijack, ZB, but I think you are probably interested in the answers too, so I'll keep it here) Anything sexual at all is taboo. She'll walk out of a room if her friends are talking about sex. She skips over the sex scenes in novels and turns away from sex scenes in movies. Any discussions about anything sexual are very uncomfortable for her. She gives short non-answers and changes the subject. So, while it isn't a flat out refusal, it is acute avoidance of the topic. Extends to talking about sex to the kids too. Does that answer it? Any thoughts to making it easier?
Actually, my thought was that my W and yours are long lost sisters or something. MrsGGB is a bit taller, she's 5'9 and is currently about 215lbs (she'd kill me if she knew I divulged her weight) 