There are a lot of parallels. You know that my W has the spending bug. She bought a VERY expensive treadmill about six or eight months ago. She assured me that she was going to lose weight and that she would use the treadmill. She did. For a couple of weeks.
I don’t nag her about her weight because I know it’s a touchy subject. But she doesn’t get much exercise, eats way too much, has a horrible diet, and poor eating habits as well. Like eating hig-calorie, high fat snacks like ice cream right before going to bed. She even keeps a big bag of Cheetos on her nightstand.
My Wife LOVES oral sex, it is by far the more intense orgasam for her. There are times where she may not want it because she doesn't want sex at all on those nights. But she is one of those hard to arouse women, and guess how she wants to be aroused, through ORAL work on her privates bits. So to create arousal, oral usually plays a role. So if I want sex, often oral comes into play.
Now, I LOVE to perform oral, but it is the resentments around HER problems with oral that are really starting to bother me, and I guess some of the other guys on this board as well.
Quote: When I was LD if I had told my H I didn't like oral (to give or receive) and he continued to give it to me....I'd feel pressured to give it to him back....and I wouldn't like that....I would have resisted it, I would have felt manipulated. I don't know if this is her perspective, just giving you how I would have seen it back then.
I suspect that many LD women are like this. I really don't know with my own wife. I rarely ask for oral in return, probably only once or twice in the last ten years (i know her feelings on this). So I am not applying direct pressure on her, but maybe she is pressuring herself?
Contrary to what you might think, in some areas her self-esteem is above your own. You've got to be pretty impressed with yourself to lay there while your husband pleasures you for a half-hour or more with such a limited sense of reciprocity.
I assume you're doing that because you feel that it is the only way you might at least get a little something in return.
I'm guessing that she's content to let you do that, because she's thinking her gift to you is greater.
I think many "why" questions are a waste of time. I wouldn't go there. At least not until some progress has been made. I would go straight for the progress oriented options.
In what context has the "I'm a bad lover" come out?
I would agree with MrsNOP that your wife can and needs to make a choice. (As an LDW myself I am trying, with some success, to do that myself.) She has obviously tried to do that to some extent by choosing to be more available to you sexually on a regular basis. She has come a long way. But I think next steps could be furthered by her learning to enjoy it more, by her learning to give you pleasure, and by her improving her selfesteem.
I think that increasing her own enjoyment might help to motivate her. It sounds as though you have already done a lot yourself to ensure her pleasure. It would be good for her to take some responsibility for that as well. I am wondering if she knows how to MB? If not, would she be willing to try it? I think she might learn a lot about her own sexual response and it might increase her pleasure. Also, would she be willing to sometimes self-stimulate during IC?
Furthermore, I think it could be helpful for your relations if she could play a little more equal role in giving you pleasure, as you have so obviously spent time and effort to give her pleasure. Perhaps it is lack of self esteem that causes her to give up and simply say "I am a bad lover". But I don't think any of this is necessarily inborn or unchangeable. People learn to be good lovers by practicing. After all, you have learned to be a good lover to her by trying things that you think she would enjoy. She may never be able bring herself to do some of the things you would enjoy (such as BJ's) but it may be time to talk with her about how you wish the effort were a bit more equal. Does she ever initiate? It takes some confidence to do able to do that.
All along, of course, it's important to work on the other aspects of your R such as companionship and communication. If she truly has global self-esteem issues, not just a lack of sexual self-esteem, have the two of you considered individual counselling for her? (or maybe in any case, even if it's primarily a lack of sexual self-esteem).
Do the two of you enjoy any nonsexual activities together? Seems to me that a lot of this is all about increasing the joy in life. People need to have joy and fun together, both sexually and not. What about the possibility of taking regular walks together while holding hands? It might give both of you: companionship, generalized (rather than genital) sexual/sensual pleasure (which might be less threatening to her), and exercise (which might ulitmately help her weight problem and her thus her selfesteem).
You sound like a very caring and considerate individual. I wish you the best!
Doglover
Quote: Mrs.NOP,
Excellent points all. So instead of trying to build up her self-esteem, you’re saying that I should acknowledge the problem and try to map a course to a better place. So instead of responding with, "No, Mrs.Bube, you’re a wonderful lover”, I should be responding with something like, “Why do you think you’re a bad lover?” followed up with, “How can we work together to rectify that?” Do I understand?
Zufriedengestellter Bube
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
Quote: You've got to be pretty impressed with yourself to lay there while your husband pleasures you for a half-hour or more with such a limited sense of reciprocity. … I'm guessing that she's content to let you do that, because she's thinking her gift to you is greater.
That’s not my take on it. I may be wrong, but I think she’s just too self-absorbed. Our C diagnosed W as a “narcissistic personality”. I tend to agree. I think that plays into her uncontrolled spending. I see signs of it in her parenting. It’s everywhere.
Quote: I assume you're doing that because you feel that it is the only way you might at least get a little something in return.
Actually, I really don’t have much expectation of getting anything in return any more. I don’t mean to portray myself as some altruistic saint or anything, but I do it because I know she likes it and I want to do it for her. This past year has been much better, but I know I’ve said that prior to this big change about a year ago, all I got in return was a half-hearted HJ – if that. Many times she just drifted off to sleep. Sometimes she would even drift off to sleep while giving me the HJ. Once she woke up, I would get an apology and she would tell me what a good lover I was and how lousy she was, but that goes with the next question.
Quote: In what context has the "I'm a bad lover" come out?
I’ve heard it on a number of occasions. Generally it comes along with a compliment on my LM skills. She’ll tell me how good I am, then follow it up with self-deprecation: “You’re really a wonderful lover. I’m not any good at all, but you’re fabulous.” Other times it was coupled with an apology after having fallen asleep without reciprocating.
So should I respond with, “What can we do together to make you a better lover?”
Quote: That’s not my take on it. I may be wrong, but I think she’s just too self-absorbed. Our C diagnosed W as a “narcissistic personality”. I tend to agree. I think that plays into her uncontrolled spending. I see signs of it in her parenting. It’s everywhere.
To me, self-absorbed and self-important are pretty much the same thing. They're both inner-focused.
Quote: Actually, I really don’t have much expectation of getting anything in return any more. I don’t mean to portray myself as some altruistic saint or anything, but I do it because I know she likes it and I want to do it for her. This past year has been much better, but I know I’ve said that prior to this big change about a year ago, all I got in return was a half-hearted HJ – if that.
But wasn't your goal to hopefully be the recepient of some sexual release? In other words, for you to even get a chance at a hj, you had to go through the process you've described.
Quote:
Many times she just drifted off to sleep. Sometimes she would even drift off to sleep while giving me the HJ. Once she woke up, I would get an apology and she would tell me what a good lover I was and how lousy she was, but that goes with the next question.
Did you ever let her know how hurtful this was? Or did you answer with a "that's okay, honey"?
Quote: I’ve heard it on a number of occasions. Generally it comes along with a compliment on my LM skills. She’ll tell me how good I am, then follow it up with self-deprecation: “You’re really a wonderful lover. I’m not any good at all, but you’re fabulous.” Other times it was coupled with an apology after having fallen asleep without reciprocating.
So should I respond with, “What can we do together to make you a better lover?”
I don't think so, because the focus is still on her. You would be looking to someone who has been content as a self-labled "bad lover" for ideas on how to be a good one.
I think you should ponder what gentle step she could do that would make you feel better about things sexually.
I would consider approaching it something like this. Perhaps next time it comes up (if it does so regularly), if not you might have to instigate.
"Honey, I've been thinking about your concerns about not being a good lover. You know what I would really enjoy next time we make love? I would love it, if I could lay back and let you caress my skin all over, front and back for 10 minutes or so. That is something I would really enjoy from you."
W will not MB. She finds the whole concept distasteful. I believe “sick” is the word I’ve heard her use. The same goes for touching herself during IC. Touching yourself is sick and twisted. Only sick-os and perverts do that. She does initiate once in a while. I can’t really give you any hard numbers though. It’s probably less than 25%, but that’s just a guess.
I know that this doesn’t sound true, but we really don’t have a lot of problems in our R other than sex. We already do many, many things together and are best friends. We have joy. We have fun. We love getting rid of the kids and having time to ourselves. We’re frequently physically affectionate: hugging, holding hands, walking arm-in-arm, kissing, etc. Our teenaged daughters frequently point at us and start yelling, “PDA! PDA! That’s not allowed!” W and I are both very active in an animal rescue group and spend most Saturdays together at pet adoptions. (You can see our website here. Right now we’re fostering 7 dogs in addition to our own 3 dogs and 3 cats.) She thinks I work too much, I think she spends too much, she wishes I had more hair, I wish she would lose weight, and we’re generally a pretty normal couple. We are best friends. Companionship is not a problem. Communication can still be a problem, but that’s primarily in the sexual arena.
ZB,
Ah, the old magic sleep stick trick! The halfhearted HJ which quickly puts her to sleep. A few strokes, and then snoring, then 10 minutes later a half dozen or so more strokes, rinse and repeat. Got to the point where I openly referred to my penis as the magic sleep stick. I know that one all too well. We're better off now, but she still falls asleep on me. Last night we took a bath together, and she fell asleep in the tub within 2 minutes after getting in. She drinks a 12 pack of Diet Pepsi a day, and I'm sure all that caffiene is not helping with her sleep patterns (not to mention the effect of the pheno-whatevers on her health. The DP seems also to make her crave food, esp. carbs).
I've heard the same comments regarding MB. No way she's sticking her fingers "down there". Same issues when we discussed checking her cervix for NFP. She can't understand how I can bring myself to stick my tongue down there, and won't kiss me afterwards until I've used mouthwash.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that you are not the only one with a magic sleep stick in your pants!
Quote: But wasn't your goal to hopefully be the recepient of some sexual release? In other words, for you to even get a chance at a hj, you had to go through the process you've described.
No. That’s where I worried about appearing to be portraying myself as some kind of saint. I do/did it out of a genuine desire to bring her pleasure. Reciprocation would be nice, but it wasn’t and still isn’t the motivation. The motivation is that I love her and want to please her.
Quote: Did you ever let her know how hurtful this was? Or did you answer with a "that's okay, honey"?
Sadly, usually the latter.
Quote: Honey, I've been thinking about your concerns about not being a good lover. You know what I would really enjoy next time we make love? I would love it, if…
I like that. I even think I could do that. I just need to come up with something to put after the “if” that I really would like but that won’t push too hard. I know I couldn’t ask for a BJ, or to watch her MB, or anything that she presently believes to be too extreme. I readily acknowledge that we may never get to something like those, but I’m sure I can come up with something a little different. Maybe the starfish…
