OK, now for some answers to the serious stuff. First to Webermiester
Quote: Wishing to make a contribution to ZB's thread, I'm thinking, somewhat like Schnarch, if only we could be this revealing to our partners in our own relationships? It seems to me that it is easy and soothing to reach out to our global support community, when really what would make us truly happy is to have that break through conversation with our spouses after reaching "criticle mass".
Very astute. I do wish I felt comfortable enough to talk to W like I talk to my friends here. I’ve been thinking about that ever since I read your post this morning. It’s pretty easy to delude one’s self, but I don’t think I would have any problem revealing anything to W. It’s kind of hard to put into words, but what I mean is that I have no problem revealing anything about myself to her. The problem is that I don’t want to hurt W or further contribute to her known problems. It would be easy for me to talk about my feelings about our SL if I wasn’t so keenly aware that she already feels sexually inadequate.
It’s another take on the old “does this make me look fat” problem. If your W is fat, knows she’s fat, has weight-related self-esteem issues, and still puts on a dress and asks you if it makes her look fat, what do you say? The real answer is something like, “Honey, it’s obvious that you’re fat regardless of what you wear”, but you would NEVER say something like that. Similarly, W knows that she has problems with sex. She knows that in nearly thirty years of M, only the past year has even come within telescope range of being normal and satisfying. She doesn’t need me to point it out to her; she tells me that she’s no good at sex, that she’s not a good wife, and that had she known she would have such problems with sex she would never have married.
Now it’s starting to sound like I’m arguing with you when I mean to do the exact opposite. I agree with you wholeheartedly. I wish I could talk as freely about sex with W as I can here.
ZB, I think you may be onto something here. MrsGGB has weight issues which are giving her a negative self-image. I think that has a very direct bearing on how sexual she feels. She doesn't see herself as attractive, and by extension feels that no one else should see her as attractive either. The next logical leap, from what i've been able to gather, is that if she isn't attractive and I'm still asking for sex, then the only reason I want it is to "get off", not because I want to give her pleasure. In her mind, her body is gross and she doesn't want to inflict that on me. You can see where that line of thinking goes pretty quickly. The trick, I think is to figure out a way to make her feel attractive and therefore better about herself. Hard when she refuses to buy or allow me to buy her clothes when she thinks it is a waste of money buying clothes she doesn't want to fit in. Thing is, by not feeling good about herself, she isn't finding the motivation to do anything about her weight either. I think if I could bootstrap the process by making herself feel good about herself, the good feelings would then provide some motivation to improve herself, and then the improvements would make her feel better etc.
Anyone have suggestions on sexy plus sized nighties that might help the wearer feel sexier?
Yes, I do touch her during foreplay. If you remember from my blow-by-blow account of a typical encounter, it always starts with light caressing of non-sexual parts. If I’m not rebuffed, it gradually increases to include the odd brushing of the sides or bottom of the breasts. If I’m still not rebuffed, it gradually increases until I’m concentrating on the good parts. This is a pretty protracted process (not to mention alliterative). We don’t get to oral until there have been fairly extensive breast and manual clitoral stimulation. The JGI method gets rejected every time, even well into the process. Everything is gradually increasing intensity and focus – with the possibility of being rebuffed at any point. Sometimes she’ll accept breast stimulation, but starts the wax-on/wax-off when I try to touch anything in the pubic area.
Flat on her back is the usual position. It varies on occasion, but flat on her back probably covers 99%.
Yes, her weight bothers her. A lot. She’s always denigrating herself over her weight. She’s constantly saying that she needs to do something about losing weight. She keeps saying that she could probably get off of insulin if she would lose some weight. So it is a big issue. I do think it contributes to her feeling that she’s no good at sex, but that’s not all of it.
Quote: Similarly, W knows that she has problems with sex. She knows that in nearly thirty years of M, only the past year has even come within telescope range of being normal and satisfying. She doesn’t need me to point it out to her; she tells me that she’s no good at sex, that she’s not a good wife, and that had she known she would have such problems with sex she would never have married.
ZB, this is an assertion of the problem. This is the *starting* point. The mistake is allowing this to be the ending point. The next step is to determine how to go about doing something about it.
My problem is low libido. NOP's problem was anger. Our mutual problem was how our expression of these things damaged our marital relationship.
So, now we all know what part of our problem is. But, if the both of us just left it at that, we would still be back in the withdrawn, damaged marriage we used to have.
NOP looked at his anger issues and began addressing them. I looked at my libido issues and began addressing them. Together we began addressing the damage we had both caused each other.
As to the "I'm no good at sex, I'm no a good wife, if I had known then, etc." you need to think about it and put together a response to this that will move you both toward a solution. Trying to assure her that she is good at sex or good as a wife negates the problem and keeps it from ever being addressed. That doesn't mean that you have to bean her upside the head with her failings. It does mean putting together a roadmap to address the issue - if she is willing to address it with you.
Mrs. NOP, How are you working on the libido issues? I ask because it sounds like yours and NOPs situation is similar to mine and my wifes. I was angry because she never wanted sex. Now we know the issues, and I am doing very good, if I may say so, on the anger, but how to get her to work on the libido. She still says that she knows she is the one with the problem, but it kind of stays at that. I would bug your husband about this, but he seems very busy most of the time. Thanks
God is love, love is blind, Ray Charles is blind......so there.
Quote: Mrs. NOP, How are you working on the libido issues? I ask because it sounds like yours and NOPs situation is similar to mine and my wifes. I was angry because she never wanted sex. Now we know the issues, and I am doing very good, if I may say so, on the anger, but how to get her to work on the libido. She still says that she knows she is the one with the problem, but it kind of stays at that. I would bug your husband about this, but he seems very busy most of the time. Thanks
NR, I have a choice. I can wait for a sexually nuanced feeling to hit me before I act, or I can delight in my husband physically and enjoy the closeness, the caresses, the tingles and the orgasms we share.
It boils down to whether or not this person is important enough to me to make the effort. That may sound cold, but it is the bottom line. *You* need to make sure that you aren't doing anything that would hinder her in wanting to make that choice. That's where eliminating the anger and whatever other issues the two of you might have had enters in.
Quote: NR, I have a choice. I can wait for a sexually nuanced feeling to hit me before I act, or I can delight in my husband physically and enjoy the closeness, the caresses, the tingles and the orgasms we share.
It boils down to whether or not this person is important enough to me to make the effort. That may sound cold, but it is the bottom line. *You* need to make sure that you aren't doing anything that would hinder her in wanting to make that choice.
MrsNOP, that is as succinct and as definitive as anything I've ever read on this Board. Well-stated, both ways!
BJ’s are simply not on the table. Not on a special occasion, not as a one-time shot, not ever. And surprisingly enough, that’s not as big an issue as I seem to be making it here. I like BJ’s and would love for W to do them, but it’s not even close to being a deal-breaker. The reason I have mentioned them several times during my tenure here, is that the absence of them provides a good picture of our SL.
For our entire M, W has liked both manual and oral stimulation. For our entire M, she has gotten both any time she wants them. Yet for more than ten years I was denied anything but an occasional HJ. For many more years, I was denied anything more than the same occasional HJ with twice a year duty IC thrown in. Now we’re up to once a week, but it’s all by her rules. She dictates the time, the place, the position, what’s allowed, …, everything. The BJ sitch perfectly illustrates that. I’m expected to go down on her when she gets horny (rare though that may be), and I’m expected to do it if I want to get laid. But she won’t even doing it for me. Not anytime I want it. Not ever. So it’s a good picture of the lopsidedness of our SL.
To be honest, I don’t have a clue how to extend my repertoire for her pleasure. I know I’ll sound like CeMar when I say this, but I’ll do anything for her pleasure. I already do frequent massages (never get any though). I already put a great deal of effort into pleasing her sexually and I always do everything I canto be sure that she’s satisfied. If you’ve read my history out there, you know that our pattern consists of me pleasuring her while she just lies there and enjoys it. Once she’s had her O, she pulls me on top for missionary position IC. She will be the first to admit that I put a lot more into trying to please her than she puts into trying to please me. It’s not at all unusual for me to spend 45 minutes to an hour on foreplay and cunnilingus only to have her O and then pull me on top for IC. Before we started the regular IC last year, it wasn’t even uncommon for her to fall asleep after her O and leave me hanging.
W’s well aware of all of that and would undoubtedly concur with all that I said. In addition to saying she’s no good at sex, she’s also said that I’m a very good lover but that she’s a “terrible lover”.
Excellent points all. So instead of trying to build up her self-esteem, you’re saying that I should acknowledge the problem and try to map a course to a better place. So instead of responding with, "No, Mrs.Bube, you’re a wonderful lover”, I should be responding with something like, “Why do you think you’re a bad lover?” followed up with, “How can we work together to rectify that?” Do I understand?
Quote: Grippe" (pronounced grip-a) is the German word for flu.......the Russian word for flu sounds exactly like the German word
Interesting word history ZB. Lots of smart people here with some amazing interests and skills.
My points to HP were: People think other people use words like we use them.
People communicate better if they use the current medically term, in plain English, not Latin
Drs. are human and do not have X-ray vision or are capable of mind reading.
Some people think Drs. instinctively know what is wrong.
There are several conditions that are mysteries to Drs. So the more you know, the more you can help your medical condition.
ZB. I am reading your posts because of our similar situations. BB is 5'4" use to weigh 187, and used to look a little like the michelin tire man, Bib. BB re-started her weight reduction and body toneing program at home. It has been off and on for the last 20 years.
What seems to work the best for weight reduction is using the treadmill for 30 or more minuets a day and doing some weight lifting. BB also reduced her portion sizes and almost no snacks. It has boosted her selfesteem and she lost one roll of belly fat. A little of the weight is gone but I see a big improvement in muscle tone.
The sex was 1X or 2X a month, we got it up to 1X a week, then the UTI's hit so we are back to about every 6 weeks. The shopping is picking up and the sex is down. So much for DBing. I hope you don't have my luck.
but that she’s a “terrible lover”.