I'll answer the serious stuff in a bit, but I just want to tell you that your story about nexternexterhausen really cracked me up. It immediately brought a real German word to mind.
The word for tomorrow is "Morgen".
The word for the day after tomorrow is "Übermorgen".
And believe it or not, there is a word for the day after that: "Überübermorgen".
Thank you everyone for your honesty and openness around sex. I don't have anything to add for anyone, except that my WS used to use a vibrator around her clit when she was on top in order to get her first orgasm. She is not able to have orgasm from IC, until she has a first clitoral orgasm. Sometimes it is from my manual stimulation, or my oral sex, and it used to be sometimes from the vibrator. We haven't done that since DDay, since I have issues with the vibrator. She used it with her phone sex interviews with the OM, so it has bad associations for me. I have thought of throwing it away. We still do, however, after some initial hesitation, have regular sex (1-2 times a week). It has become easier for me to bring her to orgasm with oral sex after the DDay, and I haven't brought up the subject with WS, but think it may have something to do with the fact that this horrible secret (for her, and especially for me) is out in the open and she doesn't feel as anxious as before. But I haven't talked with her about it, so don't know. What I wanted to ask all W on the BB, is it possible for a woman to have an intercourse orgasm without first having a clitoral orgasm? For my WS I don't think it is possible and she doesn't think it is possible for most women. This would go against much of the fiction literature you can read, which describes a man and woman reaching simultaneous orgasm after the man penetrates with initial intercourse. So what do you think?
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
I ran across a news release regarding a recent study on female orgasm. Here's a google link .
Here's one of the articles:
Mystery of the orgasm: Genetic link seen in women's sexual dysfunction
June 16, 2005
PARIS, June 7 (AFP) - British scientists say they have established a link between genetics and a woman's ability to experience orgasm, striking a blow at those who pin the blame for female sexual dysfunction on social or cultural factors.
Previous research has documented the widespread phenomenon of women who never or rarely reach orgasm but -- unlike male sexual dysfunction -- the causes of this problem have been explored only sketchily.
The most common theories are environmental rather than biological.
They blame, for instance, an oppressive upbringing, conservative religion or male social pressures that can inhibit a woman's sexuality and discourage her from even talking about her sexual problems.
Breaking new ground, British researchers questioned more than 3,500 adult female twins who had enrolled in a major study to explore heredity and the environment.
Identical twins are clones -- they share the same genes -- whereas non-identical twins have only 50 percent of their genes in common.
Thus, assuming that both sets of twins are comparable, if a phenomenon is spotted among identical twins but is absent among non-identical twins, the suspicion has to fall on a genetic cause for the difference, according to this approach.
The results found that, overall, nearly one in three (32 percent) of the respondents said they never or rarely reached orgasm during intercourse, and 21 percent were still unable to reach orgasm, or rarely, during masturbation.
The big difference, though, was in the replies between identical and non-identical twins.
Among identical twins, 31 percent said they always or frequently attained orgasm during intercourse and 39 climaxed during masturbation. This compared with only 10 percent and 17 percent among non-identical twins.
The researchers, led by Tim Spector of the Twin Research and Genetic Epidemiology Unit at London's St. Thomas' Hospital, say the remarkable difference clearly points to heredity as a factor in orgasmic function.
"We found that between 34 and 45 percent of the variation in ability to orgasm can be explained by underlying genetic variation, with little or no role for the shared environment," such as family background, religion, social class or education, they write.
The authors refrain from suggesting what the genetic link could be, but they note that many problems that weigh on women's sexual health, such as anxiety migraine, blood pressure and depression, are also linked to heredity.
Hi TS- in my own personal experience (I'm 57 and have been in several long term relationships, and several short term ones over the years), I have never REGULARLY had an O without DIRECT clitoral stimulation-- never regularly. (It has happened a few times-- those times seem to me accidental and out of the ordinary.) I consider the need for clitoral stimulation with hand, tongue, or object perfectly "normal"-- it is at least statistically normal.
I don't make any distinction between clitoral or vaginal O-- maybe some people can find a difference. I know that an O that happens with clitoral stimulation WHILE something is in the vagina (animate or inanimate) feels different. Depending on what is in there, the O might be more or less intense, powerful, strong, etc. As a general rule, an O when the vagina is empty feels deeper and stronger, I guess because the contractions can contract farther since nothing is blocking them.
As for which "comes" first, the chicken or the egg (which kind of O has to happen first), I think it's more a matter of what our bodies learned... from self-play, partner play, IC. I had a bf over 30 years ago who could not come with oral, and rarely with IC-- not enough stimulation. Pretty brisk manual stim with no lube was his cup of tea, so to speak. That's what he learned.
One advantage of having had several long term partners (and being old-- thanks, hairdog ) v. one long R to the same person is that I can point to differences among them that all are "normal" for each person.
I've never had an O from strict intercourse. I've had O's without direct stimulation but even then it was from the indirect stimulation, like what happens when the woman is on top.
Novels and books are chock full of idiotic scenarios that perpetuate an inaccurate style of female sexuality. The girl is coming all over the place from no direct stimulation and the men are all chivalrous rogues. I have always vastly preferred penthouse-forum type sexy literature, though they are idiotic in their own way, because at least they are somewhat technically accurate.
Let me ask you this....is this how she wants it? Does she want the oral? If so, then why would you go for you doing that for her...but her never doing that for you? You mentioned at one point that you didn't think she liked even receiving oral....so why would you continue to do that?
When I was LD if I had told my H I didn't like oral (to give or receive) and he continued to give it to me....I'd feel pressured to give it to him back....and I wouldn't like that....I would have resisted it, I would have felt manipulated. I don't know if this is her perspective, just giving you how I would have seen it back then.
If you continue to perform oral on her, and she never gives back in return.....what's the point? I mean, it seems to me that you set no boundaries/consequences....it doesn't appear she has any motivation to do what you ask. And if you are continuing to do something she has told you she doesn't like you to do before (performing oral on her) then why would you do that? If she doesn't like it and you still do it...all you're likely to do is irritate her.
Quote: As a general rule, an O when the vagina is empty feels deeper and stronger, I guess because the contractions can contract farther since nothing is blocking them.
Thanks LilliePerl. That is a very interesting concept; I never thought of that particular reason. I think I will try and ask WS about it, although I guess I will have to couch it in very careful terms (I don't want her to think I am discussing our sex life with total strangers without her knowing about it).
I didn't mean to imply that something was normal or not normal. I was just giving my experience. I have been struck by descriptions of male/female orgasms and intercourse in literature (classical and popular fiction) and how the descriptions never match my and my WS's experience. Whenever my WS reaches two orgasms, first through clitoral stimulation, second immediately after from intercourse with her, she seems to react more strongly and passionately to the second. I have always assumed this was because the buildup led to a second, stronger orgasm. I will bring up the "empty vagina" aspect and see what she says.
"The world breaks everyone and afterward many are strong in the broken places." - Ernest Hemingway, A Farewell to Arms, 1929.
Zbube, What about foreplay? Does she allow you to touch her during this? Is that something you could work on? Tell her you want to touch her before oral, if that is the normal routine.. Her flat on her back would probably give you the best position for bit-reachage.
Regarding her weight: Does it bother her? Could it be part of the reason why she feels she is "no good" at sex?
ZB Is there a possibility that if you discussed this issue as a special desire of yours as an anniversary or birthday gift, she would be willing to do it for you? One of the fears a lot of a people have is that once you do it, you would be obliged to do it always. So something that is a strictly one-time affair may reduce the pressure. In spite of what you said about really wanting BJ for the physical pleasure, my guess is that if your sexual relationship were growing in other ways this one issue would become relatively minor. Is there a possibility you could find ways of extending your reportoire not for your pleasure but for hers? Such as massage? Perhaps expanding in other areas may make her more comfortable with trying out innovation.
It is clear that your wife has a hard time with trying out something new and my guess is that discomfort with her own body image may have something to do with it (having been 40lbs heavier than I am now, I know what I am talking about). Showing desire for her outside of the sexual act may make it easier for her to feel wanted and desired and be more willing to experiment.
BJ has never been a problem for me and it is part of our standard act. But it is also not something I do for myself, it really something done for H so if he said tomorrow he never wanted to do it again, I suspect I wouldn't miss it. So I hope you (and Cemar) won't take it as a sign of not being sexual if she does not really enjoy BJ.
) v. one long R to the same person is that I can point to differences among them that all are "normal" for each person.