Quote: She knows you are not there yet because you still want it.
Perhaps, he should respond to her LD Catch 22 with the HD Catch 22 which is- If you are HD you will always want to have sex with someone you love. Therefore, the only way HD will be able to meet her conditions is to find himself no longer loving her and it might happen.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: the only way HD will be able to meet her conditions is to find himself no longer loving her and it might happen.
Well, this of course feeds into her whole abandonment issue with her dad, and the whole self-fulfilling prophecy thing.... Which I can't solve for her, or change for her, or fix for her.
I have been patient, I have been loving (when allowed), and I have been working on improving myself. When she tells me that she "knows" if I'm "there", and says I'm not, I used to believe it. Now, I don't.
I think you should take all this with you into the C next time. Better yet, call for an extra apt this week, or for one very early next week. If you wait to bring all this out, it might just get placed on the back burner. I know I do that alot. Hell, I been placing things on the back burner for years.
Did you find out what W and C discussed yesterday?
Annette: I am seeing the C alone next Wednesday. I asked W is she wanted me to try to make a request for the both of us to go there earlier. She declined.
As for what W and the C discussed yesterday, I make it a point never to ask about it. I want W to be able to freely discuss any matter with the C, without worrying about me prying. If she wants to talk about it, she'll talk about it. So no, I don't know what they discussed.
I don't think this is going to get swept under the rug.
I read your post all the time and really have learned from your perception of your realationships and needs. I have no real wisdom to share but your most recent post struck really close to home for me.
The kissing just addressed that on my own post. I am a keep your tongue to yourself gal why hmm my H french kisses really over power me. Not sexually but in a physical way the more he gets caught up in the moment the more lack of air I recieve if you know what I mean. Hence i seldom look forward to this event even will turn away to fringe a cough sneeze hell I would even turn away and pick my nose to avoid this life or death experience.
You made comment to your wife saying when there was passion. Well do you all remember falling in love that heady tummy tingling sensation that came with it. The adrendalene rush hormone release that made you feel on top of the world and loved I have read that alot of people feel disenchanted with a realationship when that feeling wears off. They feel the passion is gone. It is a association of feeling loved and passion to that hormonal release in the brain that failing in love stimulates that they base there feelings on. Could your W feel this way?
But my main reason I am saying anything here is this
How have I hurt her? By making my continued participation in the marriage conditional upon having a physical relationship with her.
Can so relate from your wife side on this. My H threatens me with this all the time. Mind you we do have sex more frequently then your self and your W. But everytime he said those words it triggered a resentment in me and put me further at odds with my H. Even though I felt they were hollow words since he said them so frequently and was still here. But the more he threatened me with these words the more every little sexual act spoken or physical became a sore to me that never seemed to heal. Every fight big or small over the issue of sex loomed as a sign that my H was a sex crazed freak to me. It was a monster and every move he made seemed to feed it. To me all it seemed like was that is all we ever fought about and all he ever worried about. This was my perception not really the reality of the situation but living in the moment it seemed real to me. The reality is I could not relate to his sexual needs as being more then just sex because I did not understand them. The meaning behind them it being more then sexual gratifaction but emotionl gradifacation. I did not understand this because I do not feel this so hence I still can not relate but I do now understand H's desire for sex now. Maybe your wife also lacks the ability to understand because of lack of being able to relate to the emotional side most people seem to derive from sex? Reading your post I have seen your wife and I share some past experience ie walk away father and a few other things you have mentioned as perceptions of men in general. I don't fear abandonment but it does piss me off in general when it deals with children because I can relate with the feeling of being made to feel not worthy of a fathers love. I have been raped but do not fear what lurks around every cornor but have to admit at times have felt raped by my H when made to feel I have to have sex when I did not want to and on and on. Maybe this is a pattern that sets the way we percieve current things that come from our past. I am going to ponder this. I really did not think I had any residual feelings from these events from the past but who knows. Maybe it causes us a emotional disconnection from the act of sex in itself?
My point though you do not feel you have done things to hurt her by wanting and needing a sexual relationship and you feel you owe no apoligy. Maybe you could compermise in the form of apology. Maybe W I know that you feel hurt by my need for a healthier sexual and emotional relationship with you just as I feel hurt by your lack of want of a healther sexual and emotional relationship. And I am sorry for this. And I know at times that you feel threatened by my ulimatum of sex or I am gone just as I feel threatened by the fact that I am made to feel this way. And I am sorry for that also. But now is the time to make some decisions about where we are and where we are going with this relationship. If we are going to continue work on this relationship we need to set a goal and a time line for us to get there.
You have recognized her feelings without validation. You have stated yours without over stating and you have said without threat its time to do or dont make it better and you have apologized not for wronge doings but how each of you feel without taking responsibility for causing the feelings.
Thanks, Chrissy, for taking the time to share your feelings with me. It is so helpful to get the view from the "other" side of the fence.
I even like your idea about apologizing, but not really apologizing. Problem is, she would see right through this and say, "that's not really an apology." She would also beg to differ on the subject of whether she wants a closer emotional relationship. She does, but doesn't think it has anything to do with sex.
Chrissy, she is a complex, difficult person. She blames everything she can on externals (me, her father), and refuses to admit she is wrong.
I understand the bad feeling you got when your H would say, "let's have more sex or I'm out of here." However, I went for two to three years of just simply asking her to make an effort to improve the physical part of the relationship before I finally, explicitly told her, "I will not stay forever in a sexless marriage." I don't threaten her with it constantly. I don't even really talk about it. She is the one who consistently threatens me with leaving because she "can't handle it."
I like the idea of trying to figure out where we are and where we are going in the relationship, setting goals, and a timeline. I may present this idea to her. I have little doubt, however, that she will reject it. But that shouldn't keep me from talking to her about it.
Again, thanks for the LD point of view. If a women does not like french kissing, then what is acceptable? I ask this since I don't even know how to be intimate with the wife when she does not even want to kiss or touch. I am guessing that kissing is even more intimate then sex, and is probably the most intimate act possible. So if your not into kissing , then what is there?
As for the passion fading, yes it does, but the degree to which it fades varies greatly in each person. I would guess that most HD's experience very little fade. I would like to ask though, if you are not all that interested in passion in your marriage, then what do you want? I am always curious to see what is the goal of marraige to a LD person.
You are more then welcome for my opinion from the other side of the fence I just wish I could offer a true solution. I think for me and my mindset just the realizing and trying to understand both sides to a degree has helped a large amount. Not stating it has cured my M there are so many other issues to still tackle oddly this was the easiest but also that one that stands in the way of the others even being viewed clearly.
she would see right through this and say, "that's not really an apology."
If she does tell her it is the best you can do at this time. That at least you are acknowledging that she feels these things to show she is aware of it. And tell her point blank if need be that at least by acknowledgement of her feelings you are doing more for her then she is for you.
In truth I do not know if your marriage has other issues other then the sexual ones. But it is apparent that this one needs to come first because it is what has manifested into a monster in your R. And in truth from what I have read it seems you are doing everything you can to fix it with little or no help from her. From my point of view you might as well go outside and bang your head against a tree you are gonna end up with the same results a headache. My meaning unless and until she is willing to take her share of the responsibility and blame in what is wronge then you alone are carring the burden for both of you on her back and I wonder how long until it breaks?
She needs to face her demons and she needs to stop letting them control her. Has the C ever addressed this? Or she needs to stop wantingly use the pity me acts as a crutch to get her way. It is very common in people and society allows and almost pats them on the back for it.( Feel entitled to say that since I myself have been there it is not a overly harsh dont know what I am talking about judgement). I do not know your wife so I do not know which of the above listed actions if either pertain to her But I do know both play in the role of a abused (of any sorts) persons mind set. Just another thought to ponder lol
Cemar
While French Kissing is taboo to me all kissing is not. There are the pecking kind allowed and also there are the little hmm longer maybe run your tongue around the lip kisses just not the cram it down my throat kisses. Problem is you gotta get close enough to your spouse to try it. Sorta kissing lessons on the go type thing.
And oh yes the emotional thing wish I could answer that. If you read my thread you will see that has become a big hmmm to me right now. Sorta my figure out life issue of the moment. Any more questions you have I will gladly answer but maybe we should move them to my thread to not hijack Hairdogs.
Quote: I ask this since I don't even know how to be intimate with the wife when she does not even want to kiss or touch.
Cemar, sorry to be so picky, but I'm reading through your post and all of a sudden I get to the above statement and it's like a slap on the face. the wife
I have seen a much more positive attitude in you here lately, but to see you call her 'the wife', well that just makes me groan inside... ugh, he's one of 'those' guys... Not very f*ckable in my mind, sorry! Even if you never say it in front of her, women can pick up on that attitude Cemar, and this may be what is turning your W off of kissing/touching/ML.
