I know exactly ow this feels. I have had very similar conversations with the wife. My wife and I have not kissed in 4-5 years. I think our wives see passion as something that YOUNG people do, and that mature people DON'T do this stuff. Very bizarre. But don't give up, you are only just beginning to talk about it. But you ARE TALKING!
Quote: W made an effort today and you squashed it.
I guess I don't see her telling me that August 4 is some magical day as an effort. What it seems to me is further rules that I must abide by until some date in the future. In other words, I must remain patient (which I have already been, for a very long time), and then on August 4, something will happen. What is that "something"? I'll tell you what it is: Nothing. Because August 4 will come, and she will have yet another sh!tload of work or other activity that she has scheduled that will take the place of any interaction which would be meaningful to me. And, in the outside chance that she has really cleared her calendar, or whatever "free time" means, she will still be too stressed out or too tired, or too itchy, or too sore, or too hot, or too cold, or too something to do anything more than give me the most nominal of physical affection.
And now, on top of all this, I feel deceived by a woman who now informs me that tongues are icky.
As far as proceeding to argue with her, I have learned that whenever I feel I am under attack by her, and I say something in my defense, I am being "defensive." This, of course, makes it quite easy to ignore any response I may have, whether there is any merit to it, or not. Let's just put a label on it, "defensive", and then focus on why I am being defensive, rather than the issue at hand.
SOrry, SD, I can either eat the BS she is serving me (which is what I've been doing for a long time), or I can refuse. That is where I am, today.
When she got home, she came forward to give me a hug and I made no move toward her. W: Are you mad at me? H: Yes. W: Why? H: I feel deceived. W: Deceived?! About what? H: About how you view kissing. W rolls eyes. H: Right. It's not important, because it's something I care about. She begins tirade, about how she's the one who feels deceived, about x,y,z...etc. When I say "tirade," I mean yelling, red face, the whole thing. W: If you feel deceived, then leave!
Of course, she is the one who had to leave, to take DD4 to her swimming lesson.
Quote: She begins tirade, about how she's the one who feels deceived, about x,y,z...etc. When I say "tirade," I mean yelling, red face, the whole thing.
Hey, at least she didn't break your kitchen counter...yet. BE STRONG and HOLD ON TO YOURSELF. Think about what a great french kisser Hanketta will be if you have to. You'll get through this just fine.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I understand that you're angry and have lots of history behing your feelings. I just think that lashing out at W when she's trying to make a connection (twice now today) is only going to get you further from your goals. Do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? As hard as it is to change ourselves, I think it's a lot harder to be truly open for the other person to change. Your words say that you want change, but your actions today send the message that you don't.
It took me a long time to learn that your W is right about defensiveness. When someone is giving me a complaint, my job is to listen and ask questions if necessary and make sure I understand what they're saying and what they're feeling. If I have something to bring up, then I can do it at another time, but not when I'm supposed to be listening. It's mighty tough to do. That's why I buy duct tape by the case.
The issues you bring up really make me think that DR and Gottman's Seven Principles could make a big difference in your sitch.
After a long night of arguing, here is where we are: She wants me to understand and acknowledge how I have hurt her, and she wants to feel comfortable that I won't hurt her again before the relationship can continue.
How have I hurt her? By making my continued participation in the marriage conditional upon having a physical relationship with her.
I refuse to apologize for this. This is who I am. If placing this condition on our marriage has hurt her, then so be it. It is a perfectly reasonable condition in a general sense, and it is, to me, a basic, important part of a loving marriage. If this condition has hurt her, the hurt has come from some place inside of her, not from me.
I think your W's POV is unreasonable but understandable. Everyone wants to be accepted and loved for who they are no matter how flawed. For instance, your W's desire to be loved and accepted even though she is LD is in some ways analogous to my desire to be loved and accepted even when I'm 30 pounds overweight. Maybe she feels like she has little control over her sex drive and therefore can't feel secure in a relationship that is dependent on her sex drive. This would be analogous to the fact that I feel insecure in my relationship because I feel like if my H could act like a sh*t because I was overweight, what's to stop him from acting like a sh*t in the future when I'm wrinkly. OTOH your W's position is completely unreasonable because expecting you to be accepting of her LD would be the equivalent of me expecting my H to be accepting of the fact that I weighed 400 lbs. and refused to shower. Maybe what you need to convey to your W is that you can love her and still find her behavior unacceptable. Of course, if she really thinks in her heart of hearts that it is okay to be the LD equivalent of a 400 lb woman then I'm not sure what you can do.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I don't know if it would be really productive but I think it would at least be a wake-up call if you said something to her like "What you are expecting from me is unconditional love. Unconditional love is what you should have gotten from your Daddy but didn't. There is nothing I or any other man on this planet can do to make up for that because unconditional love is not the kind of love that two mature adults share."
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: Maybe what you need to convey to your W is that you can love her and still find her behavior unacceptable.
I actually did this last night. I told her that I love her, and will continue to love her, regardless of whether she decides to step up to the plate (or the bed). However, there is the very real possibility that, although I will continue to love her, I will not remain in the marriage.
She said that there is no difference between the two.
