I'm not sure what they talked about, but W called saying that, by August 4, she should have some "free time" to begin spending some time with me and DD3.
Oh golly.
My, big frickin' deal attitude came out, and I said, "by then, the summer will be almost over." She said, "thanks for throwing water on my parade..." and proceeded to tell me how she doesn't even feel like trying to be more affectionate "because it will never be enough for you"
W: It's like you said about having to clean or do chores and knowing that it will never be enough to satisfy me.
Me: The difference is, I go ahead and do the cleaning and the chores the best I can. Because I know it needs to get done.
(she didn't like that...guess you're not supposed to mess with someone else's analogy).
Further argument ensued. She said that she doesn't know what I want, but that even if I had a list, she could do everything on that list and I wouldn't be satisfied.
Me: I could make a list, and I would be satisfied if you even made an effort to do some of the things on it. For example, 'touch me, kiss me passionately once in a while...'
W: I am not ready to do that. Especially icky tongue kisses.
Me: Icky?
W: You know I don't like tongues...in my mouth, in my ear, in my vagina.
Me: Icky? Why did you French kiss me when we were dating, then? Did you think they were icky then?
W: That was different. There was passion and stuff back then, but now tongues are just icky.
This just f#*ckin' pisses me off. There is nothing I like better than passionate, french kissing, etc. So I feel even moreso that this is total bait and switch. WTF! So now, if I am to spend the rest of my life with her, I have to give up french kissing as well as: BJs, regular sex more often than four or five times a year, cunnilingus, making sexual comments or jokes. Oh, and I can only touch her breasts on those four or five times a year, as well.
"Icky tongue kisses"? That seriously sux. I mean even if she would ever let you french kiss her again, how could you feel good doing it thinking about how icky your tongue is? Of course, she did indicate that she didn't find it icky back when there was passion in your relationship. What do you think she means when she says "passion"? Is it just code for "when I had a sex drive"?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
HD, Does she agree that getting back to a more passionate way of life is one of the goals of your marriage?
I'm not sure, from my vantage point, if the two of you have agreed upon the direction you are taking your M.
When she says, That was then--we had passion...is it her viewpoint that you are, theoretically at least, working towards feeling this way about each other again?
I have a hard time understanding your W. I get that she doesn't feel sexual desire and is confused and sorry for this. (trust me on this one--she liked being sexually attractive and feeling sexually attractive) What I don't get is that she doesn't seem to have a point in attending counseling. If the point is not to get the spouses back to a place of intimacy and passion, then what is?
I've had the same response from my wife except I'm a lot less vocal than you were (it's the conflict avoider in me).
My wife also told me that I was too demanding and she felt she could never meet my needs...as such she quit trying. That didn't hit me too well either. Does that mean that if I cannot buy you a porsche I should not bother buying you a car? does this mean that if wife wants to talk for 2 hours about her emotions and I can't meet her needs I should just tell her to shut-up or go tell it to someone who cares?
Nope, just like you... I do the best I can and I keep trying. That's all we want our partners to do... we want to feel like our needs / wants / desires are just as important.
Sometimes I think I got the bait and switch too... but, I guess I really didn't. Our sex life was only hot for a month and then it slid into once a week (which I actually used to think was not enough)... all the extra stuff BJ, etc pretty much ended before we got married... I knew she was no nympho... I just kept hoping that it would get BETTER not get WORSE.... I looked at it as some kind of crazy challenge... like I was going to crack her shell and she was going to turn into this sex crazed wife...
Well, it never happened. We can't even talk about sex. I tried a few times, but she called it "verbal foreplay" in a very negative tone and asked that I not do that anymore.
After all the counseling and communication workshops she did actually say we should start talking about sex and maybe email would be a great way to get comfortable with it... yeah right... I sent her three emails, got no responses back and that was the end of it...
I can so identify with your last statement. I too feel like I am expected to just give up all the things I enjoy and live my life in her world.
Right now, we average once every 20-30 days (even though she claims to be interested every 15 days?). I SAY that if we ever got to a 4-5 times a year I would leave her, but I'm full of crap and I know it. If you had asked me 10 years ago what I would do if I was only getting sex once every 30 days I would have probably bragged how I would be walking - yet, here I sit... waiting for something to change.
I'm very sorry to hear about this Hdog. Even thought frequency has improved in my situation, this dilemma is something that I haven't been having to live with. I too love kissing, but my wife despises it, she finds it for lack of a better word, discusting. The best she can muster is a closed lip peck, and I find her pulling away from that quite frequently. In hindsight, I have only myself to blaime, as I should have seen the warning signs when we were dating, she would try to coach me on kissing differently, such as keeping it dry, less tongue and so on. But I digress, I'll keep you in my prayers.
HD, Maybe you can bring up the topic of where SHE wants the m to go. What her goals are for counseling, etc.
If it's not to regain a considerable amount of intimacy, then I sure as heck would be questionin what the point is.
My H used to say "All I want is for you to be happy" but what that really meant was "I want you to be happy with what I give you". It took him a while to realize that this was not going to happen and that we had to forge ahead and create a system that both of us could live with.
I think you should ask her: Would you agree or disagree that our ultimate goal with marriage counseling is to increase intimacy?
You and I have similar situations in that our spouses have these airtight reasons why they don't want to get down and dirty: MrsHD refuses because that is objectifying herself and MrHP refuses because that is spiritually offensive. So they fully expect for their needs to be met--because they are legitimate--but look down upon our needs as being beneath them. Any attempt to get them to acknowledge the validity of loving sex is met with a moral argument. On the other hand, there is no moral argument against cleaning toilets, now is there.
HD, I know this is frustrating, but I think you're impeding your own progress.
W made an effort today and you squashed it. When she brought that to your attention, you proceeded to argue with her. I think that is why your tongue is icky right now.
I haven't read SSM, but I've read DR. If you haven't, I think it could be helpful. What about John Gottman's books? Yes, W is doing some things that are deadly to an R, but so are you. You have the power to change your destructive behaviors. There's no telling what effect that might have on W, but I suspect it would make passion a lot more possible.
