wallowing

[LostGal]

Barring having to be up in 30 min with no sleep to do something VERY difficult at work....

HD, that would be my dream atm. Isn't it refreshing that atleast we can see that there are different ppl out there?

[sat567]

I was wondering when you were going to chime in, Nop. Thanks for the pep talk (use of irony here...it means much more than a pep talk to me).

The thought of acting more like her father towards her has me baffled, but is interesting. I've tried to do everything to avoid acting like her father. Could you comment a bit on why you think this might help our relationship? Remember, this is a guy who, when she made a mistake, would say something like, "How could you be so stupid?!" I've actually seen him get this way with his wife, usually while performing a task (putting together a trampoline, launching a boat).

Your words on my conflict avoidance are very accurate. I'm working on it more and more. And I liked the message you set forth in the paragraph about the note. I don't think I'll do it in a note, though. Very little progress results from these kinds of notes/emails to her. And, I know from my past, that writing notes is my way of avoiding conflict. Yes, I know, conflict usually results from my notes to her, but the act of writing it out, carrying it in my briefcase, placing it somewhere where she'll read it after my escape from the house, and waiting for the inevitable phone call, are ways I avoid conflict. No, I just need to say it to her face.

Others who have written:
Jenny, Lou, HP, FF, GGB, LG, your words of advice mean so much to me. This board is part reality check, part therapy, part b!tch session, part comforting embrace, and part brainstorming session. I really appreciate it.

Last night she didn't come home until fairly late. The only thing she said was that, having clearly told me now that she doesn't want to be touched in certain places while she sleeps, she wants me to respect that for the "foreseeable future." I said "fine." We slept in the same bed.

After about an hour, the Rohypnol took effect and I had anal sex with her while the videocamera taped it all. Just kidding.

Hairdog, who refuses to lose his sense of humor.

[lacknlvin]

Gee thanks HD, now I have coffee all over my monitor...

[NOPkins]

HD wrote:
--------------------------
The thought of acting more like her father towards her has me baffled, but is interesting. I've tried to do everything to avoid acting like her father. Could you comment a bit on why you think this might help our relationship? Remember, this is a guy who, when she made a mistake, would say something like, "How could you be so stupid?!" I've actually seen him get this way with his wife, usually while performing a task (putting together a trampoline, launching a boat).
--------------------------

I was basing my comments on your previous descriptions of her father.

I am not suggesting that you should repeat the negative parts of her father - SHE is already doing that to YOU.

What I think you should do is exhibit his strength in dealing with her. Let's call it defiant love. That is when you look at her lovingly, and still tell her 'no' or whatever. Her father's strength was often overbearing, but there was still respect. Start holding your wife to the same standards that she holds you to. If queried as to the change, name the standards she holds up for you, but don't be a smart-ass, just use straight forward honesty.

If you decide to do this, you will produce fireworks. For that matter, if you decide to do much of anything, there is going to be fireworks. The legerdemain requirement falls to the ability to show obvious love while getting the hair singed off your testicles.

No matter what approach you take, other than just learning to live with her foibles; any move toward resolution is going to take a fair measure of intrepidity on your part. You are going to get a figurative bloody nose, or depending on how strong she is, the corner of the kitchen countertop torn off. Food also gets thrown at times (I love you MrsNOP!).

I understand that you don't want to end your marriage, or damage it to the point that it is beyond repair. Still, you have to measure how far out you are from the point of no return. You seem close to me.

I hope that you will give your marriage a chance at recovery. In your case, that probably means a fair bit of fighting. That is what your wife grew up with, and she obviously plays to win (911 threats). I don't think she will ever respect someone that gives back less than they take.

What do you think?

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[sat567]

Nop: You're right. I have nothing left to lose, and everything to gain, including my self-respect.

She has set a boundary that she will not tolerate me touching her breasts while she is sleeping. Okay. Boundary noted. I have set a boundary that I will not tolerate her coming up to bed after I'm asleep and trying to engage me in conversation. Sounds reasonable. Yet she still tries to do this. I intend to hold her to the same standards as she holds me to from now on. (Talk? Right now? After I've been sleeping for 20 minutes? Sure, but prepare to have your breasts fondled while you're asleep.)

Thanks for the advice, all. MC appointment at 1:00 today. Got a list of subjects to address.

Hairdog

[MJontheMend]

She has set a boundary that she will not tolerate me touching her breasts while she is sleeping. Okay. Boundary noted. I have set a boundary that I will not tolerate her coming up to bed after I'm asleep and trying to engage me in conversation. Sounds reasonable. Yet she still tries to do this. I intend to hold her to the same standards as she holds me to from now on. (Talk? Right now? After I've been sleeping for 20 minutes? Sure, but prepare to have your breasts fondled while you're asleep.)

Hmmmm. I think you might be better off with a boundary along the lines of "Dear wife, I really like fondling breasts.Therefore, I plan on fondling some breasts this weekend. Please let me know if you would like them to be yours. This would be my preference since you have really great breasts. Love, HD". Why bother creating a boundary about something you only kind of care about, being woken up to chat, when you can take a stand on something you really do care about, breast fondling? I think you should stay focused on the problem at hand.

[sat567]

Why bother creating a boundary about something you only kind of care about, being woken up to chat, when you can take a stand on something you really do care about, breast fondling?

Because if I said that to my W, she would say, go forth and fondle, just don't touch mine. And she knows that I can't square doing that with my current code of morality. So, it would be an empty threat/boundary. No, the best boundary I ever set was the one that finally drove her to say we needed to go to MC: I will not live in a SSM forever. I meant it, I intend to live by it, and, if things stay the way they are, I am willing to sacrifice a lot of other things that are less important to me in order to follow through. And I think she knows that I am capable of this.

In other news, we just had our MC session and spent most of the time talking about the stress my psycho-ex-wife causes to our marriage, and possible solutions. We did talk briefly about the breast-fondling incident, but not in depth. It was a session I walked out of feeling better than when I walked into it, but mainly because my W said some really nice things about our relationship, physical stuff, etc. Not a whole lot to report...just me trying to look on the bright side.

It's 99 percent attitude, right?

Hairdog, who would never say, "if I told you that you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?" However, he might say, "Should I call you in the morning or nudge you?"

[MJontheMend]

Hairdog, who would never say, "if I told you that you had a beautiful body, would you hold it against me?" However, he might say, "Should I call you in the morning or nudge you?"

LOL. That's funny, I had you pegged as a "Got any fries to go with that shake?" man.

Seriously, I probably only made the suggestion that I made because I am still waiting for just one person on this BB to actually be as ballsy as the women who went to the bar in "Passionate Marriage". Do you actually think your wife would just calmly sit by while you got yourself all spiffy and headed out on a Friday night looking for available breasts? If so, that's kind of mind-boggling, IMO.

[sat567]

Do you actually think your wife would just calmly sit by while you got yourself all spiffy and headed out on a Friday night looking for available breasts?

I don't know how calm she would be, but I think she would find comfort in knowing that her husband is not the type who would sacrifice his morals to make a point. The only point at which I would do this is after the petition for divorce has been filed. I am of the mind that, at that point, it is more likely than not that the marriage is truly over.

I'm not at that point right now.

Hairdog

[MJontheMend]

I see what you mean. She knows you well enough to know that it would be an empty threat.

I'm kind of surprised that counseling hasn't helped your situation more simply because it should have "disclosed" how wacky your W's stand on the sex issue is. I mean if you guys were at a social gathering and the subject of sex came up and you were to say "Well, we haven't had sex for six monthes and W threatened to call the cops if I ever touch her boobs without permission again." your W wouldn't be at all embarrassed to have her outlandish behavior exposed? Maybe you ought to start writing people letters like CSW did about his W's affair.

Dear MIL,

I thought you ought to know that I am strongly considering divorcing your daughter because she hasn't had sex with me in 6 monthes. I feel like I do my best to be a caring, responsible husband but I am at the end of my rope. I have received the impression that you have been somewhat supportive of my wife's negative view towards men and sexuality but I thought I should give you the opportunity to advise your daughter otherwise if this is not the case. I can understand that you had difficulties with her father given his personality and attitude but surely you can see that I am not like him and counsel your daughter in a positive manner unless you prefer to see her live the rest of her life in solitary bitterness with a permanent grudge towards half the human race.

Love,
HD