Quote: Can we really do that with limited interaction?
I think it goes back to what you said earlier about projecting a positive and self-assured image. They are not going to show feelings of love for the early pathetic whining people we were. And likely they did not fall in love with us the first time we met; there may have been infatuation or lust; I know there was on my part.
But despite Hollywood theory, I have never fallen in love immediately. And any hope of restoring an R would have to follow along the lines of the beginning of the first R. Being a person someone (hopefully the XW) wants to be around.
Just as early in the R, we cannot predict or guess their behvaior, actions, reactions. And I guess the real truth is we need to stop worrying so much over them.
I hope we did not act like this when we first met; I suspect they would not have been interested in us. I know I have gained insight into paying attention and listening to her, but I do not think (the more I think about it as I write this) it is a good idea to change dramatically our behavior in hopes of extracting a given response or reaction. We can alter or reconsider negative actions and behaviors but if we start OVERANALYZING and overthinking every action and reaction, we are not being honest or genuine to ourselves or to the people we profess to love.
As Michelle and others note - "Love is a choice." The WAS is choosing right now not to love the LBS. Just like there is likely no love at first sight, there will likely be no magical cure to the S/D sitch, with the WAW running back into my arms. Instead, it will take a slow, building of a new R - work that can start when the WAW gets curious/interested/attracted to the LBS once more and begins to slowly open her heart once more.
Then with many deposits in the WAS' "love bank" (5LL), the LBS can hopefully help build things to a level where the WAS decides to go for the chance at a new R in a many that is really yet another leap of faith. A new choice to love.
I had two convos this week with 2 guys who separately won their WAWs back. It was a mixed experience. First, I learned that there are no miracle cures (then again, maybe love happening b/t 2 adults is a miracle in itself ). It always takes hard work, extensive personal change, patience to allow the WAW the chance to work out her stuff (both had a MLC theme, but maybe this is mere exploration/growth), and both involved kids.
The first LBS is older (late 50s) and had to deal with his substance abuse demons before she took him back. Took 3 years of hard work, followed by moving to a new state to be near her and their daughter prior to a reconciliation. Not a completely happy ending. I'm not a judgmental person, but I do take things in with great detail, and I noticed that he drinks a lot (maybe slipping back into substance use), seemed down, and was checking out the rears of every woman who walked past him. Made me wonder about his ability to attend/nurture his R with his W. Note to self: "Work to improve oneself and to enhance one's R should never stop." This is a true lifestyle change, with no real end-point.
The second LBS was different. He's my age (late 30's), and had a WAW my W's age (34). This man had truly taken the lifestyle change to heart, was working hard to keep things going, seemed to freely note the fun things he was doing with his W, yet had plenty of time/activities that he pursued himself. Seemed to work hard at keepign a balance b/t work, self-care, and attending to his R. He noted that his W dated a bit, but always seemed to be watching him, especially regarding his attention/fathering to their D. He noted that he slipped in small bits of kindness/attention to W when he attended to their child, noting that W had felt jealous about his attention to their D early on, which contributed to her already present feelings regarding his shortfalls as a H. Took him almost 3 years post-D to reconcile with her, but told me something key: By the time this occurred, he was so confident in himself, that his happiness no longer depended on whether she took him back. This allowed him to just be himself, and his loads of self-care let him be the self that his W fell in love with at an earlier age. Only this time, he was older, wiser, more established, and had a better ability to 'romance' her, as she was now more of those things as well, and seemed to require a different level of wooing. In other words, guys, we have to learn a new way to romance. The old ways that worked in college or shortly thereafter just won't cut it anymore.
Me? I'm looking into some dance lessons (salsa first, then maybe ballroom), then maybe a poetry class?
Ladies, what do you suggest in the areas of romance? First, picture yourself pissed/disappointed in the guy. What might he do to patch things up at least to a neutral level, then interest you, then to sweep you off your feet?
Yeah, my take was that the romance didn't start til way later. However, earlier on (once the hatred cooled and things were semi-friendly) LBS2 used his renewed confidence to act playful/flirtateous in a semi-casual way. You know, just strutting his masculinity comfortably in her presence - not in a conceited way, just a comfortable way. As Deida notes, it sends the message: "This is MY polarity, Hon. And I see you and celebrate you as a feminine woman, at a complementary polarity." The rest of the questions of hers - male goal-directed behavior, financial stability, honesty, happiness, etc... - are answered over time by the LBS' actions and consistency.
The small acts of kindness were immediate once the friendliness stage hit. Offer, holding low expectations. He gave one example- he brought a pint of his child's favorite ice cream, and a specific pint of WAW's favorite kind. When she declined, he gave a spoon to the child, took one out for himself, and they proceeded to chow down in front of W. He kept it light and funny (making "Uhmmm!" sounds to taunt her lightly ), and did it again later, with her accepting.
Sounded like just small acts of kindness that we all probably did in the early R stages, then much less frequently. IMHO, I think things that convey an intimate knowledge of the WAS would be especially good (like he knew her favorite ice cream).
Well, I'm not sure what romance would attract me that would be applicable in our situations, but I do know what turns me OFF, so I'll list irritating behaviour that has put me off my bloke:
1. Him saying he'll call me and then he doesn't and so I call and he says 'I was just about to call you' - arrgghhh!!
2. Complaining that I don't call him when he doesn't call me.
3. Assuming he knows everything about me.
4. Thinking he is always the better parent than me (this infuriates me about a lot of fathers, not just him).
5. Expecting me to drop everything last minute for him but he doesn't like it if I have plans.
6. Sending me all these emails on 'personal development' and actually thinking that is NICE. Arrrghhh!!!
7. Coming round and asking me if I tidied up before he got there, when it is nearly always this tidy.
8. Never returning DD4 in the same clothes she went in so I lose things I paid for at his house.
9. Complimenting me on my clothes/appearance etc whilst running out of the front door. TEASE. All words and no action is as annoying as hell.
10. Talking to me in this quiet tone of voice when we are disagreeing on something (like he would a 5 year old).
11. Looking on my cell phone without asking, going in my bedroom without asking, reading my DIARY without asking - ARRGGHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
12. Putting his friends, his mum and everyone else before me, being continually late, but God help me if I am late.
Stuff he did in the marriage that switched me off:
1. Watch football on TV right after ML. 2. Tell me how to look after DD's but then put baby's dress on back to front. 3. Smoking dope in front of me. 4. Having millions of criminal friends. 5. Letting the inlaws bully me and never telling his mother to leave me alone. 6. Leaving his shoes on the floor when I just tidied up. 7. Taking the duvet off me in the morning and putting the NEWS on blaring loud at 7am. 8. Walking in on me when I'm on the toilet and just talking like it's totally normal to talk to someone whilst on the toilet. 9. Wiping his face with a dirty T-shirt instead of a face cloth. 10. Leaving his underwear all over the floor. 11. Complaining when he ran out of clothes because I hadn't washed any - yet because I made him vaccum the carpet he didn't like that. 12. Thinking his job was better than mine because he earnt more money. 13. Leaving facial hairs in the sink. 14. Not getting up at night to help me with baby because he had to go to work.
Just never do any of the above and you will reconcile immediately, LOL.
I'm not sure those are up the alley Gabe had in mind. LOL I bet he will never get the opportunity to walk in on his ex-wife while she's on the toilet or leave his underwear on the floor until he wins her back (but after that he should probably avoid those things). Take a step back well before your H was an annoyance and consider some acts that were simple, but loving. Things that he did on dates that attracted you to him. That what you're asking Gabe?
Along those lines let me ask you something. For the most part when I go out with my ex, or ex + kids I pick up the tab. She does grab for it part of the time, but I generally pay (I'm in a much better place to afford it). Perhaps that is a turn-off to always (or almost always) pay? She used to pay half the time when we went out...perhaps I should return to that? But I'd be interested in some of those ideas myself.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Loved yyour post, my friend! Man, what would we do without your stable sanity on this forum. Thanks for being the center of gravity here.
I love the approach of the second LBS that you had posted on. And the 3-year time frame seems just right. I am at year 2 guys and I can attest to this: Year 1 - W was extremely angry. I was an idiot. No changes in me. I did all manner of pursuit. Year 2- W cooled down but not sure of herself. I was still searching for answers. But I was learning to back off. Reading Deida helped a lot. It gave me so many "aha" and "duh" moments. LBS Guys, please, please read Deida. If nothing, it will give you a fresh perspective. Year 3- Physical space is closing down. W actually lay on my bed last night along with D3. She has not done that in a year folks. And touching has become epidemic. On Sunday we were at dinner and W was sitting across from me and our legs were in contact the whole time. Not in a footsie kind of way, just in "touch" and she left it there all the time. I experimented by moving it away and putting it back and she did not budge. My summary so far: Year 1: W trying to pull away. I am chasing. Sitch gets worse. Year 2: W starts to stabilize at a far away distance. I stabilize where I am. Year 3. W has started to come towards the R.
My guess is, with the present trajectory, IF we get back together it will take another year.
The main point I want to make is it is a 3-4 year sitch. I have seen and heard this over and over....We have to be prepared for this timeline guys and actually this is good because it gives us plenty of time to make ourselves into awesome human beings that our WAWs or any other future R partners would love to be with.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
I'm trying to remember way back to before we were dating...um, well..
1. He gave me a lift to a Christmas party without me asking, in xmas 1993. He eyed me up suggestively because I was wearing this velvet black dress and then he went in the kitchen to 'help' me make cups of tea.
2. He said I had a lovely singing voice and called me beautiful.
3. Picked me flowers from an obliging field because he couldn't afford to buy me any
4. March 1994 he threw snowballs at me (sounds silly, but I thought it was romantic).
5. Took me to my favourite town, spontneously, and we ate chips and curry sauce that was so hot it almost killed us.
6. Wrote a diary about me and how much he was in love with me and then let me read it.
7. Fed me strawberries, taught me how to drive his car in fields (No driver's licence).
8. Stole some flowers for me from a cafe table by stuffing them down his jumper. We legged it out of the cafe in hysterics.
9. I used to move into his mother's house while she was away and we'd both sleep in a single bed together, that was romantic, but it's not really DB'ing.
10. Surprise home cooked meals.
11. Being worried about me when there was a traffic jam.
12. Love letters (he used to write me really nice letters while we were dating, he stopped after we moved in).
13. Listening to the radio together (that was how we fell in love, actually, because we used to listen to the car radio for 2 hours every day).
14. Bringing me packets of chocolate biscuits.
Er, can't remember any more atm, but I still reckon if us DB'ers tried any of that on, we'd probably get socked in the mouth.
). It always takes hard work, extensive personal change, patience to allow the WAW the chance to work out her stuff (both had a MLC theme, but maybe this is mere exploration/growth), and both involved kids. 
), and did it again later, with her accepting.