How to GAL when SP is jealous/trust is broken??

[heatherg]

if you can get to that place where you can walk without looking back

Do you think that place really exists? Especially for someone in my situation? Meaning, I've been with H since I was 17 and I've never known anything different. Do you think the day will come, if it hasn't happened already, where I will ever know with 100% certainty that leaving is what I should do? I pray some nights that I will wake up and I will be ready to go, but instead I wake up just as scared as I was when I went to bed.

[heatherg]

~Journaling~
I didn't wait a couple of days to discuss the C issue, I waited only until tonight. I was feeling calm and rational and had what I thought was a good idea so I thought I would take it to H and see what he thought of it. Here's how it went (keep in mind that during this whole time, H never took his eyes off the book he was reading when I entered the room):

Me: Can I ask you a question?

H: What?

Me: If you're uncomfortable with the C thing, maybe we could set aside an hour a week where we could talk about some of the deeper issues in our R and maybe we could take turns picking out the topics and we could try to stick to just that one topic.

H: Yeah, unless you're in one of your moods.

Me: Well, we could also have some checks we could use to mean the conversation is over. Like boundaries if the other oversteps, the discussion is over.

H: You mean like you could pick a fight and then state that the discussion is over? Sounds like it would work better for you than me.

Me: I think you're misinterpreting what I meant.

H: You're crazy, I never know what you're going to do next.

Me: Ok....but how I am responding doesn't have to impact you. [Can't remember quite how I said that]

H: Yeah, right :eyeroll:

Me: How does me being crazy mean that we can't set aside some time to dicuss our R issues?

H: I don't want to get into this, I just want to read and go to bed.

Me: I don't want to get deep into it either, I'm tired myself.

H: Tomorrow when you get a hair up your a@@ it will be like this conversation never happened.

Silence.....H continues to read.

Me: You do realize that I am coming to you and you are thoroughly blowing me off.

H: Nods his head and raises his eyebrows as if to say "duh"

Me: And you do this every time I come to you.

H: Snorts, yeah ok.

H: Why don't we just try being civil for a month and see how that goes?

Me: Ok, we can try that. What does being "civil" mean to you? To me it means that you need to stop keeping the kids away from me. Maybe we can rotate days for daycare?

H: I'm not going to let you use the kids against me anymore.

Me: And what you are doing is different because....?

H: I eliminated all the ways you can possibly use the kids against me.

Me: That morning when you started this and I said I would continue taking them as I always have and you said "Ok kids, who would you rather ride with mommy or daddy" how was that not using the kids against me?

H: It was letting them decide.

Me: Do you think it's wise to be letting a four year old and a two year old make the decisions as to what goes on in this house from day to day?

H: They don't.

Me: How does one argument between us turn into something that has to carried out forevermore?

H: If we're both up and dressed, they can choose who they want to go with.

Me: You are only comfortable saying that b/c you are 99.9% sure that S4 will say he wants to ride with you and D2 will likely follow. Why can't we just alternate days?

H: Yeah, letting the kids choose doesn't work because it doesn't benefit you. It's not about benefiting anyway, what's the big deal?

H: Letting them choose sounds like a compromise to me. I thought I said I didn't want to talk about this?

Me: [Thoughtfully]...ok......

H: Then get out, not ok let's approach it from a different angle.

And I left the room.

Any thoughts? Reprimands, lol?

[Dmsw4]

It sounds like he's feeling hurt and defensive and justified and all sorts of other things that he's using to make himself feel better by making you out to be the bad guy.

That doesn't help you, but I've been guilty of some of the same things. And it won't make you feel better, but my girls love riding with daddy in the truck too. But they go EVERWHERE with me, and daddy is a novelty.

[heatherg]

It sounds like he's feeling hurt and defensive and justified

I know I deserve much of this. DR says things always take longer than you think they should. For us, it's been a year now.

But they go EVERWHERE with me

As opposed to "But my childrent go NOWHERE with me".

I don't want to be with this person he is anymore. I don't. But I keep making myself try. Out of fear. Out of obligation. Because I feel guilty that I've had a part in making him into this person. Because I want to "do the right thing". Because I want to want to. But I DON'T want to!! I cringe at the sound of his voice. I hate going home to him. I want things to be different so badly that maybe he's right, maybe I am all over the place. I try one thing, get frustrated, the hate returns full force. I can't hide how I truly feel and I feel like I hate him. Period. I've tried to change it or at least hide it, you know, fake it til you make it. But we aren't making it and apparently I'm not fooling anyone.
I think I just have to get the courage to somehow do what's right in my sitution, what's right for me and stop worrying about what everyone else thinks and how they view my actions . It will be a long and difficult process as most of you can probably tell. When both parents want primary custody, things are never pretty or painless. I just can't seem to make myself take the first step into that fire.

[molliew]

Heather, your sitch right now is very familiar to me. I've had that same convo with each of my husbands--over and over and over again! It never changes, it's always a cheeseless tunnel. I wanted control and H wanted control. Especially with the first H who is my kids' father. Everything had to be my way. I think I've posted this to you before. Of course you hate him because he is being an a$$ because you want all the control of the kids and he would like to make a decision about them sometimes. Is it really that bad to let them decide who they go with if everyone is ready to go. Could you not look at it from the kids' point of view for a minute? There could be something special about each of you taking them. You could each do something during the ride that makes it fun for the kids. Not a competition between the two of you, it's about the kids. Do you really have to win this one? There are no safety or health issues for the kids in this that I can see, except mom and dad fighting over them. Someone has to give a little here and it might have to be you at first. What if you got ready in the morning and said, "kids, who would you like to ride with this morning?" Let them decide and go with it. If they choose dad, then tell them good bye, have a great day and kiss them all good bye.

Please try to let go a little Heather. I'm sure you H is not a bad father, right? I've done this, Heather, and it will always be bad and you will always be angry at each other, and you will always hate him. You can do something about this. You can let go and trust him and the kids to work this out. This really is a little thing. You are both just trying to win! It isn't worth it--believe me, I have been there. Perfect 180 opportunity.

Just this one thing and then try another. Don't try to fix it all at once. Think about the alternative--you dump him and get into a new R with a really great guy. Things are great for a couple years and then he starts to resent the kids and your time and control over them. Been there, done that! Keep what you have if you want to and can. The way you are going, it isn't going to change.

[heatherg]

I wanted control and H wanted control

I can see what you are saying about each of us wanting control. But I am not trying to gain control here Mollie, only trying to hold onto what I had. H and I get into an argument about something one day that indirectly relates to taking the children to daycare and the next thing I know, I'm not taking them anymore. No discussion.
When H and I were getting along, I dropped off at daycare, he picked up. Everywhere we went, we went as a family so there was no disputes over who was riding with who and all that nonsense. I never tried to take the kids anywhere by myself until H and I weren't getting along so well and H refused to ride in my vehicle. It wasn't until this past year that I've discovered with no uncertainty what is and isn't "allowed" for me at my house, rules which are held for me alone.

Of course you hate him because he is being an a$$ because you want all the control of the kids and he would like to make a decision about them sometimes.

???

I've had that same convo with each of my husbands

I think you're projecting a little of your own situation into mine. Would you agree?

Please try to let go a little Heather

I'm trying.

This really is a little thing

Most dynamics in a R are little when you pick them apart. No one thing is worth leaving over, in general. But when you start putting them together, that's where the big picture comes in and a person's true personality comes to light.

There could be something special about each of you taking them. You could each do something during the ride that makes it fun for the kids.

This is so true. In a normal setting, this would be perfectly healthy. If it's about choices, truly about choices, why would H not allow me to take S4 to the beach with us when he chose to go? That was my test, my test to see if H is genuine as you suggest. He didn't pass.

[molliew]

Obviously, I don't know you or your H, but I'm just relaying some info about a life experience I had, not projecting it. At the time, I didn't realize I was doing it. Not until years later into my second M.

When I said you hate him cuz he's being an a$$, what I meant was he is being an a$$ because from his point of view you are wanting to be in control and he's pissed about it.

Maybe what I was trying to say was, what if you took this one situation (taking the kids in the morning) and tried to do something different with this one thing. If it worked out, would not that success maybe flow into other parts of your R?

Sorry, if you felt I was picking on you. And I'm not taking his side either. Just wanted to put something out there that might help.

[Chrissy]

Heather

I hope you don't mind but I am going to ask a few questions

I am not seeing you as trying to take control of your children or take that control from your H. I am seeing you as scared that your kids S4 mainly prefers your H. And you are fearing a loss of your children and there need or want for you. Sorta like he gets to do everything with them and I get to do nothing why wouldnt they prefer him. Am I close?

This is not fair you should be allowed bonding time with your children. You should be able to take both of your children to the beach for a enjoyable day.
Why wont he let you.
I see maybe two reasons from your thread
A. he is trying to punish you through the children. He knows they are your weakness and by controling S4 and not allowing him to spend time with you he knows he is hurting you.
B. He also has a fear that your children will want or need you more then him So he is pushing you out of the picture.This thought comes to me from you making a statement earlier in the thread that your H wanted to be able to start making more decisions about your kids. Now he wants to make all concerning S4.

Either way you look to end up loosing if you continue to allow this to happen. And I am not talking him taking your kids away I am talking about the lack of emotional bonding time on your part and the large of amount of it with the kids on his part is going to make the scales off balance with need of both parents to have healthy relationships with the children. He may feel this was tipped in your favor before and may only be trying to even the weight or he may purposly be trying to tip them in his favor. I cannot tell. Only you know what is inter reactions with the kids were prior to all of the problems and how much dependency they had on him prior to the problems. My guess is there was some or the kids would be more reluctant D2 in paticular to go with him now.ie Crying reaching for you ect..

Question is H always home when you are with the kids. After work it appears so if he always picked them up. What about weekends? Does he ever work on Sat go off with friends to fish anything?

If so take this time for just you and the kids. Dont do laundry vacum the floors or those things. You have plenty of time to do these things when H is in contol or charge of the kids. Use this time to tickle read a book or pack them in a car and whisk them away for a ice cream cone.
With S4 in paticular this will build on your emotional bond. Not saying if daddy is gonna take him somewhere all of a sudden annouce well mommie ws going to take you for ice cream as a treat while daddy was gone. Thats putting him in the middle and more then likley gonna start a fight.
But take what little individual time you have for you and your children and make it a good time. Just a suggestion.
You may already do these things with your kids and just have not relayed that to us. Or you may not get alone time. Not real sure just wanted to throw it out there.

[heatherg]

what if you took this one situation (taking the kids in the morning) and tried to do something different with this one thing

I do see what you mean. I've thought about this. Ultimately though, I decided that I cannot do a 180 where my kids are concerned. On a R issue, I could try it. But I see this as much, much more than just a R issue and there is too much at stake on this one for me to back down.

Sorry, if you felt I was picking on you. And I'm not taking his side either. Just wanted to put something out there that might help.

I tend to get defensive, I'm sorry. I'm trying very hard to learn how to trust myself and my feelings. I feel like to describe my R with H, it cannot be done in one post. So if a person such as yourself reads one post, it may appear that I'm WAY overreacting to something. If you read other posts in my thread and you still think I'm overreacting to this, PLEASE tell me.
Mollie, thanks for your time and your thoughts. I appreciate it.

I am seeing you as scared that your kids S4 mainly prefers your H.

This is simplified for how I feel now, but it does describe how I used to feel pre-affair, i.e. pre-really, really hard times. Particularly before D2 was born, there was just a general feeling of being left out, wishing I had that connection with S, never being quite sure if I was a good Mom. I always thought that there were things H should have done, as a good father, to encourage the bond with me, but I didn't push anything. For instance, my S would never allow me to put him in or get him out of his car seat if H was around. This is a little thing and is really something that should not have been catered to I didn't feel. I don't think we necessarily had to make the kid cry and say Mommy is getting you out, period. But H could have said "S4, that's silly. Mommy can get you out of your seat, daddy's tyeing his shoe" or WHATEVER. Just SOMETHING. But it was never that way and like I said, I never pushed it. I would express my feelings to H and he would just say that I shouldn't take it personally, they just have a "special connection".
Then, when I told H about the affair and for the first time ever, he purposely kept my kids from me. First he threw me out of the house and if I came by he wouldn't let me rock or dress or feed them. That didn't continue for too long, because at everyone's advice I came back home. But then for a couple weeks after I came back home, he would be gone with the kids when I got home from work and wouldn't answer the phone or tell me where they were, etc. All of this made me realize that the one IMMEDIATE change I had to make in myself was to be a better mother. That feeling of losing my kids was enough to make me realize that I had not been trying nearly hard enough with S4 and I needed to start playing swords and learning what being a little boy was all about. I'd never been good at "playing" and it was time I learned!!
And it had a really, really positive effect. S4 was really responding.
I recall H saying two things to me during this time. The first was really soon after I came back home(I was gone less than a week by the way). He was crying (I have RARELY seen this kind of genuine emotion from H) and he said he felt like I was trying to take his kids away from him. I was crying too and I looked at him and said I would never do that, confirmed that he was a good dad and the kids needed him as well as me.
The second thing I recall him saying was a while later and he said maybe if I had been this person before I cheated, he could see us working, but now he didn't know if it was possible. That indicated to me he was happy with the changes I was making as a parent. I was never a bad parent at all, but I would clean or talk on the phone or not want to get dirty or wet, blah blah blah. I just needed to loosen up that's all, so I did and it's an ongoing effort even now.
It just seems that as time has gone on, H has become adamant that I not have time alone with S4. H has set the tone in our house that mommy is for D2 and daddy is for S4. S4 has said that many, many times and I am the only one that corrects him.
I seem to have no authority with S4 either. I think he stays up way too late. For the first 4 months after I told H about the affair, he slept in S4's bed with S4. His family finally talked to him and told him he needed to stop, but S4 usually crawls in with H during the night anyway. They have a "deal" of sorts that I disagree with that somehow allows S4 to sleep with daddy.
One day when we were having a pretty calm discussion, H expressed to me that he didn't get enough alone time with S4. I said "what do you mean, you have time with them every day before I get out of work, you take them to the park all the time". He said, "no, I mean just with S4. D2 requires a lot of supervision and I don't get to spend quality time with S4 when I've got both kids" I said "well take him for ice cream some night or to the "game store". I've never had a problem with you spending extra time with S4". That very night when I got home from work S4 announces to me that him and daddy are leaving for "boys night out". Without explicit discussion with me, H implemented boys night out every single thursday night where he and S4 go out together to play video games or whatever S4 wants to do. Sounds great on the surface doesn't it? But this is the man who won't give me ANY alone time with our son, I try to be supportive and reasonable and he goes way overboard in my opinion. I was thinking more of an occassional bonding time, not an every week, all evening type thing.

And you are fearing a loss of your children and there need or want for you

Short answer is yes. But from what I wrote above, I hope you can see that this fear comes from a very real effort on H's behalf to limit my contact with S4 while increasing his own.

Question is H always home when you are with the kids. After work it appears so if he always picked them up. What about weekends? Does he ever work on Sat go off with friends to fish anything?

He usually gets out of work earlier than me. The guy never seems to work quite honestly. I don't know how he gets away with it. But anway, he usually picks the kids up around 4 and I don't get home until at least 5:30, so every day they have alone time together.
H does not have any outside hobbies or friends. I'm not being sarcastic here, he just doesn't. He believes every minute of his life should be spent with his kids. He is a night owl, always has been and he is a loner. He gets time for himself late at night while the rest of us are asleep.

Hopefully this long post (sorry!) helps explain my fears a little more and why I think my fears are valid and why I feel I need to keep fighting H on this as opposed to caving or doing a 180 in this area.

Thanks guys!

PS, looks like I have to start a new thread soon....apparently when they get this long, they lock or something....?

[anna123]

Particularly before D2 was born, there was just a general feeling of being left out, wishing I had that connection with S, never being quite sure if I was a good Mom. I always thought that there were things H should have done, as a good father, to encourage the bond with me, but I didn't push anything. For instance, my S would never allow me to put him in or get him out of his car seat if H was around. This is a little thing and is really something that should not have been catered to I didn't feel. I don't think we necessarily had to make the kid cry and say Mommy is getting you out, period. But H could have said "S4, that's silly. Mommy can get you out of your seat, daddy's tyeing his shoe"

Wow... reading this just hit home how marginalized I must have made my H feel. You seem to be in a gender-reversal of a really common parenting dynamic. Many mothers I know have this experience, and many of us just sigh, roll our eyes and do it ourselves. With each other we gripe about how little our H's do with the kids, without thinking about how our tendency to jump in and do it ourselves feeds the scenario. This is one of the only complaints my H has ever voiced (and this came post-S ).

I'm not at all justifying a lot of the controlling behaviour your H is displaying. Mainly a hijack to comment on how helpful it is to hear how it feels to be the one marginalized in parenting roles. And to say that perhaps, before things got ugly between you two, your H wasn't thinking at all about how it made you feel, just focusing on his S's needs (like I did with my kids, ignorning my H).