How to GAL when SP is jealous/trust is broken??

[heatherg]

I don't think back much about what I could have done.

This is probably the healthiest both for oneself and the M. It's almost MLCish of me to think along those lines. I wonder if it's possible to have a MLC at 30?!

That sucks! I don't want or believe in lap dances.

He says he never paid for one, they were always paid for by someone else at the table. And actually, now that I think about it, he may have said table dance....perhaps there is a difference between a table dance and a lap dance? Either way, the scene is extremely sketchy. To my knowledge though, he hasn't been to one of these types of bars in years.

~Update~
H and I seem to have recovered from all the little and not so little fights we've had in the last few weeks. We are talking, doing things as a family and having sex. For now.
We'll see what tomorrow brings. Pessimistic, I know, but it seems to be the pattern. We get along for a while and something happens to cause a huge fight again.
H hasn't brought his thumb drive home all week. It's usually on the bureau. He's been carrying it back and forth from work for literally a year now and all of a sudden, once he realizes I've been snooping, he quits leaving it out within my sight.
I plan to tell him quite simply that I am done snooping through his stuff, that I found out all I needed to know. And I plan to tell him that at least now I am on the same page as him. I never knew how acceptable it was to disregard the other person's feelings and opinions, but if that is the way our M will be so be it. At least I know that's the way it is. Here all this time, I thought we were somewhat respectful of how each other felt about things. Bottom line, don't expect things from me that you are not willing to give yourself. That is part of setting boundaries for me and redefining what is acceptable in our M. I cannot control him or what he chooses to do. But I will not let him dictate what I do, while he goes behind my back to do what he pleases.
In some ways, this feels like a battle that responding to in this manner won't get me anywhere. It may not get me anywhere with H, but it will make me feel much more empowered in myself to know that I am making my own decisions and not letting H one-sidedly influence me. I will not be manipulated.
Update on my hair falling out~Doctor thinks it is stress related since I don't have any other symptoms. I'm having a blood panel done July 5 and I should have the results back on my hormone panel within a couple of weeks.
Tonight I bought myself a bracelet. I wanted something to wear to remind me of all that I have been through and all that has been accomplished. When I want to react to H or act out, instead I will look at it and it will remind me that I am in control of me and no one else. What I say and do is determined by me and I alone am responsible for making good choices and sticking to my goals. I really think a visual reminder will help.
Right now, my daily struggle is that it is really hard to live with someone who truly disregards me. I have a lot of pride and I find that I don't quite know how to deal with it. Any suggestions or questions to help me figure out the dynamics of my R would be greatly appreciated.
Good night all.

[OG_Lou]

heatherb, I just re-read all of the posts on this thread to look for patterns. Both of you guys have something like e-mails, books, or pictures the other does not like.

Copies of E-mails.
Your H made copies of e-mails of the on-line A to use as proof you were having an on-line friendship / A to counter the D you initiated so when your D statement for the reason you wanted the D, he could show you were also doing something wrong.

I don't see anything wrong when you deleted your origionals. I don't see that much wrong when he made copies to possibly use in his defense.

I see both of you guys invading eachothers space when it came to your books and H?. He should have never trash caned your books, but I suspect he did because he might have thought you were learning to really stick it to him.

Guys hear stories that women would rather be mean to their soon to be XH than be fair. Here are some of the stories guys hear.

The W hires the lawyer that will hurt the H the most, not one who is fair. The W will do this at the expence of what she might get in the D settlement. Guys hear the story "I don't care if the lawyer takes all of the marrital assetts, I am making sure H is dead broke when the D is final." I dont want to go to jail and If I can't kill him I will make sure he is dead, even if it is only dead broke."

I see where you are right. He only sees where he is right and over looks the things he is doing wrong (she kissed OM and that is wrong VS it's normal for guys to have table dances as long as I did not pay)

I think reading DB gets the reader to look at what they are contributing to the marrital problems. This does not happen at first and maybe not so much from reading the books as much as it does here on the bb when we are repeatedly confronted by our peers.

You are here and see some of the things you did wromg. How would your H get to this point you are in now with the hepl of this bb, without him having the experience of reading this bb or some other source? How long did it take for you to first see how something you did or were doing changed from something you justified to seeing it was something that was hurting the M?

My point is, maybe you are in a better position than yoyr H to see the faults and how they were the reason for the problems in the M. You decided to change from a position of justification to seeing those activities hurting your H and you want him to do the same, but he is not there yet.

Maybe I am off the mark but would you consider a math analogy. It's as if you can multiply and divide and your H can only add and subtract. It might also be like you are saying one language is better than another language. Fench is more personable and has more feeling words verses German which might be more logical ( I really don't know about either language, just using language as a topic).

I don't know If your H would read Divorce Remedy but i think it would be a good start, especially if he did not want to go to C. It might get the two of you to use the same words and share some concepts. What do you think?

Sorry if this seems like old stuff or does not address a current issue. I was seeing a pattern and wanted to reflect it back to you.

Lou

[heatherg]

I don't see anything wrong when you deleted your origionals. I don't see that much wrong when he made copies to possibly use in his defense.

I think we are thinking the same thing and wording it slightly differently. When a M dissolves to the point that mine did when I filed for D, each person is essentially for themselves. I was no longer asking myself, "whould H approve of this?". Most of what we did to one another was not inherently wrong, but mostly inconsiderate. We have both played our roles in the inconsideration department, my only concern is that H keeps "adding to the list" of things he's not going to forgive me for.
I know the cyle needs to be broken and I also know that I'm in the best position to do it. That's why I was so mad at myself when I retaliated against him for throwing my books away. I NEVER should have ripped up that magazine. That was my first opportunity to break the cycle and I blew it. That's also the reason I bought myself the bracelet, to be a visual reminder that I must keep control of my own reactions. I think I'm on the right path, but I need encouragement from people like yourself, all on this BB have been so helpful.
~Update~
Well, did I not say tomorrow (meaning today) would bring a new problem?? Sure enough. H is going out of town today, just for the day. He called me Wed from work to tell me he was just informed of the trip. Wed night I told H that my brother was going to bring S4 to my karate class Friday night (tonight) and that his long-time GF was going to watch D2. H didn't respond negatively. I thought that might be a turning point, b/c H always resents when I try to take the kids anywhere. But, I thought maybe he just realizes there isn't anything he can do about it since he will be out of town.
SO....this morning we are putting the kids in the car to go to school and H tells S4 that he won't be picking him up from school today b/c of his trip and that he can't wait to get home tonight to see him, etc. H says "maybe we can watch your new GI Joe movie tonight". Now, flash in my mind is what the heck is he talking about, my karate class is from 8-9pm, S4 will not have time to watch a movie when we get home, it will already be bedtime......warning bells are sounding loudly in my head, b/c clearly H has forgotten about my class or he is messing with my head. I hope for the former, so I say "He'll be with me at karate tonight, remember". H gives me an eyeroll and a huffy sigh (like this is the first he's heard of it??) and says "that means you're not going to have him home until like 9:30". Basically, I told him he was more than welcome to come and through his all-too-familiar body language and set jaw I can tell he is pi@@ed. S4 says "I want to watch GI Joe".....that is also H's favorite way of manipulation when it comes to being able to take the kids anywhere. He says we should give "choices", so he'll ask if they want to go with me or stay home and play with daddy, or something to that effect. If they choose to go with me, he will always end up going and ruining the event b/c of his attitude and the events that take place right before leaving.
I have absolutely no idea why H does this, it's like he is so frightened that I might get closer to S4 than he is. H is much more laid back about where and when I take D2, but if I want to take S4, it's like WAR.
So, we'll see what happens tonight. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if he breaks his neck to get back home before it's time for me to leave for karate. If he does get home, I can count S4 out b/c H will surely find a way to keep him home.

[NYsurvivor]

Have you considered really becoming a walk-away and turning him into an left-behind, because men don't hear, as a rule, they need to be acted on. It's usually after she leaves that the guy is willing and able to do whatever it takes, right? You might want to tell him that you're trying but you feel he's not trying but making things worse and if this keeps up, you're walking.

[heatherg]

Hey NY, glad to see ya!! BTW, if you get tired of the crap on your thread, you're always welcome here!!

and if this keeps up, you're walking.

I would love to be able to say that b/c in my head, I feel that's what I need to do. But I've tried that and it made me so sick I could barely make it through my days, I saw a little change in H so I backed down (have I lost my credibility??). Like you said, if you're gonna threaten, you need to be prepared to follow through and I'm simply not that prepared!! Divorcing someone like my H would be a lifelong battle. After I served H papers, he brought up mediation. I told him I would be willing to try but I wasn't optimistic b/c part of our whole problem is that we can't agree on ANYthing. If we could agree and see eye to eye, I think half our battle would be won....and then we wouldn't NEED a D!! But just to give you an example, when we briefly discussed the things we would ask for in mediation, he says he will remain in the home b/c that is the kids' home and he wanted me to agree that they would remain in the school district that our house is in. Our kids aren't even IN school yet!!! How could I agree to something like that when I don't even know where I will live, etc??? Divorcing him would be a nightmare that never ends.
To listen to him speak NY, he makes so much sense. It's only lately that I'm starting to write things down and try to keep a clear head so that I know what he said and what I said and he can't turn it around later. That is helping me to see that his logic isn't really as sound as it's always seemed.
Also, he is adamant that I would be putting myself above my children if I were to file, putting my happiness above my childrens'. That prospect terrifies me and loads me with guilt. My kids are the greatest and they love their daddy even if I can't seem to. I don't know where to begin handling that.
So, for now at least, I need to put thoughts of D on the back burner although it's a wonderful fantasy at times.

~Update~
I called H to see how he was going to treat me. He was fine. And then comes this....."I talked to my sister and nephew wants to have dinner at Chuck E Cheese tonight for his birthday and wants S4 and D2 to come (we're already going there all day tomorrow for nephew's party). I just sat there on the line for a moment and I said, "every time I've tried to plan for S4 to come to one of my classes something comes up....will you bring him next Friday then if we go to CEC tonight?" He wouldn't answer that, giving me the famous snotty "I have no idea", meaning no I won't.
Then he starts in on the "I thought we talked about you only going one night during the week anyway" meaning, you already went Monday night you don't need to go tonight as well. I said "that is a whole other conversation" he said "no, it's this conversation". He said why don't you wait until you find another school, I don't want him getting attached to this school (he's already made it clear that our kids are NOT attending the school I go to b/c it's too far away~1/2 hour drive). He said "you're setting me up here and I can see it". Apparently he thinks I'm trying to get S4 attached to the school so that he will want to go there. He says "I'm going to try to get home in time, before you have to go". Meaning, he's going to take the kids to CEC and I can go to karate. He just acts as if I'm so irrelevant and my plans don't mean jack.
I'm going to try to get ahold of SIL and ask her if we can go to CEC early, like around 4 or 5 and then we'll still have time to go to karate. Then, I can just call H and tell him very sweetly that we have it all worked out. But, so far I cannot get ahold of SIL.

ARGGHHH

[Jabez]

HG:

To listen to him speak NY, he makes so much sense. It's only lately that I'm starting to write things down and try to keep a clear head so that I know what he said and what I said and he can't turn it around later.

I read about a communication skill called "drive through listening" (like going thru the drive thru at McD's). You repeat back to your SP what you heard them say, that way they have a chance to listen to what they said and you agree on what they said and you can understand what they mean. When you understand your SP you can then tell them how you feel, by using the phrasing "I feel like. . ." but DON'T use the word "You" becuase it will put a negative feel to your statement.

I can't say that I have been able to do this w/WAW yet, but I am "practicing" with some people.

I thought we talked about you only going one night during the week anyway" meaning, you already went Monday night you don't need to go tonight as well

Did you both agree to this or was it left hanging? If you agreed, then you have a problem. If you left it hanging, then you have a problem.

I'm going to try to get ahold of SIL and ask her if we can go to CEC early, like around 4 or 5 and then we'll still have time to go to karate.

If I were him, I would think that you were going behind my back by doing this. I would tell him upfront that you would like to talk to SIL to see if there is anyway to do both.

[NYsurvivor]

I see what you mean Heatherg. Looks like to me that he knows how to manipulate conversations and events so as to keep control. Not good.

I mean, stuff like making you feel guilty by pointing out that whatever you're doing is "putting yourself before the children" when he, by virtue of being disagreeable with you, doesn't care to see himself in that same light, that he's putting his interests above that of the children.

Not that I think you're putting your interests above your children's. Children don't benefit from living with or having as role models two unhappy people who stay married in an unhealthy relationship. better for them to see how two healthy self-loving people go about dealing with the bad times and/or dissolution of their relationship respectfully and kindly.

And the way he'll sigh and roll his eyes, and ask the kids if they want to have fun with him or go with mommy (when it's obvious by how he's phrasing it which way theyll choose) and when they choose against him, how he'll try to ruin the event.

Reminds me of this joke:

"Knock, knock."
"Who's there?"
"Control Freak. Now you say 'Control Freak' who?"

[heatherg]

I'll post more later, just wanted to say that I talked to SIL and they cannot go earlier b/c MIL doesn't get out of work until 7pm. So I gave in. I hate to be the bad guy and my kids adore their cousins and will have way more fun at CEC with them than they would watching a bunch of adults kick each others' a@@
H goes out of town during the week starting after July 4, so I will have other opportunities to take S4 with me.
Not to mention, I don't have a choice in the matter. Like I said, H is going to break his neck to get home in time to take the kids whether I intend to go or not, so why fight it????

[heatherg]

You repeat back to your SP what you heard them say

I definitely need to work more on this. You'd think it would be easy enough, but it's really not is it?!

Did you both agree to this or was it left hanging? If you agreed, then you have a problem. If you left it hanging, then you have a problem.

We sort of did leave it hanging, although I indicated that I actually like my schedule the way it is. I told him maybe I could cut back to one night during the week and then go for two hours on Sunday instead of one. The reaction I got told me that wasn't good enough. I like going twice during the week. If something else comes up though, I almost always give the other event priority over karate, so it's not like I live and die by the idea that I have to go twice a week.
I don't know Jabez, right now, I'm not feeling very willing to compromise. I was, but then more stupid events have taken place and he's not leaving his thumb drive out in the open anymore (i.e. he's hiding it). I will NOT go back to a relationship where the only person's feelings that matter is H's. I'm going to stand by my own opinions and thoughts this time; I have nothing to lose. H already disregards me and disrespects me and often downright ignores me, so what's next? Is he going to stop looking at me?? I'm not afraid of driving him away. Quite frankly, if he wants to leave, have at er, that's what I say. I don't want a D, but I don't want THIS R either. Does that make sense?

I would tell him upfront that you would like to talk to SIL to see if there is anyway to do both.

Yes, ideally I would have thought to suggest it while we were speaking on the phone. That's why I'm supposed to count to five before I respond to H. But I have yet to actually count. One of those goals that doesn't come easy to me, I usually totally forget. I'll try harder to remember to count so that I have a moment to actually think about what's been said instead of responding/reacting off the cuff.

[heatherg]

Children don't benefit from living with or having as role models two unhappy people who stay married in an unhealthy relationship. better for them to see how two healthy self-loving people go about dealing with the bad times and/or dissolution of their relationship respectfully and kindly.

I do agree with you on this. But there's also a lot of research out there that says up to 25% of kids whose parents are divorced have problems that most kids whose parents are together do not have. My mom tells me that H has me brainwashed into thinking that the kids will be horribly affected b/c that is the best way to convince me to stay without him having to make a single change in himself. I don't know, I just know that right now there are two things I cannot imagine. One is being without my kids for half of the time. The other is looking into their little blue eyes to tell them that they will have two homes now, etc. I can't do it, I'm not strong enough.
H would get the house, there aren't any doubts about that. He will never leave this house and no judge will order him out w/out physical abuse or some similar justification. So, I will have to move out and H being as manipulative as he can be will totally play on the fact that this is their home, the place they've been since they were babies. They'd come to visit me and when they came back to him, he would tell them that they're "home" now. The kids would see that all is the same except Mommy left. Another big fear of mine is that H has so much family here and I have only a brother who isn't all that interested in kids. H's family is TOTALLY kid-oriented and we get together practically every weekend. I have so much less to offer in that department. I know that sounds crazy, but kids are going to want to go to the place where they have the most fun right? My S is my H's protege, he barely wants to do anything with me now, how's he going to feel if I leave??

If it were just me and H, there isn't any doubt that I would be gone. But there are these two fabulous little people caught in the middle and I don't know what to do about it.

NY, I was surprised to see on one of your postings somewhere that you have a son. Just one child? For some reason I assumed you and your W had no children. Not sure what gave me that idea....how was your son affected by your separation? How old was he when it happened?