How to GAL when SP is jealous/trust is broken??

[heatherg]

but if you think of it as an addiction instead of those women competing with you, does it help you to stop thinking about it so much?

Sure I can try to look at it as an addiction. But it sure isn't going to help me respect him. What kind of guy has an "addiction" to porn when he's got a beautiful wife in the next room, whom he won't even allow to sleep in his bed??
I just feel like, fine, if that's what you want to do, fine. But I'm young and I have a lot to give. If you don't want it then let me go!!!
Does that make sense? It's just as much about me as it is about him and these stupid pictures. I feel like I'm wasting my youth with somebody who'd rather look at a picture than at me. For somebody that's had two kids, I have a pretty good body. I'd like to be with someone who appreciates it, ya know??

[OG_Lou]

understand some why your H is looking at porn on the internet.

For some guys it is similar to looking at expensive cars. They look nice, exciting but you know you can't have them. I look for many reasons. One is they are pleasing to look at, I wonder about the various combinations of body parts/features. Similar to what I did as a teen when modifying a car, removing chrome, adding 2 spot lights (American Graffiti) type cars).

Some girls (perfect body type) go to great length deciding which swim suit looks good on them. I say they all look good. I don't undrestand all of the time invested looking for swim suits, purses, or shoes.

What might reduce my looking. A W that was into sex, holding hands, othe touchy/feely things more, not such a prude, and other repressive behaviors. I would not be on this bb is things were better. The dogs & cats get most of the lovin. Nough said.

Do you mean I should suggest using porn myself

Not you using porn IRL, but ask your H to mentally be the wife, you be the H. If he was the wife, would he feel something like you feel?

Lou

[heatherg]

For some guys it is similar to looking at expensive cars.

I understand what you're saying here. But what if the guy MB to the pictures he sees. Then it's not so much like looking at cars anymore, is it? I guess I just thought part of being true to your spouse was not fantasizing about other people. Maybe I'm just naive. Plus, who am I to talk, I kissed somebody else. To me, being true is being true inside your mind as well.
For instance, what if I didn't kiss OM? What if I just really wanted to, but never did? I suppose by most people's moral standards, I wouldn't have to tell because nothing actually happened. But if I DID tell, wouldn't it almost be as hurtful??
I don't know.....I guess I just don't understand why I'm not enough. Why can't he look at me and think I look nice and exciting??
I guess if I knew I was number one in his life, I wouldn't have such a huge problem with it. But I know I'm not number one. Maybe that's the real issue.
But Lou, let me ask you this: if you knew it was affecting your W so deeply, would you continue to do it? Please be honest.
I'm going to try to talk to H about it tonight. Start a calm discussion. I've stayed true to my goals and written about it first. I've clarified the specific things I want to know and I've clarified what I want to tell him about how it makes me feel. I've made a mental note not to focus on the viewing itself, but on how it makes me feel.
I'm scared to death. I don't know why. I just don't feel like I'm connected to this person anymore and I'm about to bare my most vulnerable feelings. In our R, power has been such an issue that I feel like by giving him my feelings, I'm giving him power over me. He has power over me now, but at least he doesn't know how much.
I just want to feel safe again. Safe with someone I love. I want to feel like I can trust them with my feelings and my heart.

[OG_Lou]

RE: heatherg

For instance, what if I didn't kiss OM? What if I just really wanted to, but never did?

Wanting to ______________is normal some times. It is the act of carrying out our wishes that get us into trouble. I think some peoples idea of "If I was pure, I would not want to ___________." is not realistic. OTH obsessing all the time on the same __________ does get people in trouble. So, a little _______ is normal and a lot of __________ gets us in trouble. You fill in the blank with somethings you consider is stepping over the line.

if you knew it was affecting your W so deeply, would you continue to do it?

Yes I would quit. I dont want to really be with a picture but I need an outlet sometimes. But,

W/BB not very interested in sex or much recripical physical contact. I can rub her back and feet till the cows come home. I get a quick kiss and a "thanks" then she procedes to hug the dog some times. I feel like I am on the end of a line of girls braiding the girl's in front of her hair. In my situation (feeling) there are only 2 people in line and the other person does not like to switch places.

Would I quit? Yes if I had something to quit for except more almost nothingness. It's like BB saying "I don't like sex much, I don't like to do much physically intense kissing, I want you to hold me, no touching the eroginous zones. I will take free/no strings attached atention. The Marriage agreement said I should not go outside the M for my sexual fulfillment and BB is not willing to meet my sexual desires more than 10% of the time. The other 90% turns to frustrations and resentments over time. I know she has limits on how much sexual contact she feels is too much. What do people do with the differences in sexual desire?

I never dream of being with them, they are only pictures. I see them as sexual beings who are demonstrating something about their sexuality and they are enjoying it. It is kind of like watching a person who enjoys riding the rollercoaster. I am happy for them because they are having a good time. It also amazes me how much varity is present in the human population. (body types, desires, what is normal, abnormal, and how many false concepts people belive in)

He has power over me now, but at least he doesn't know how much.

I think you need to seperate what you feel from what you think is power.

I can tell someone how they hurt my feelings or moral standard. That is about them. I still maintain my power unless you think your H will use what you tell him to inflict some revenge. If he does that, you still have power by stating firmly and in a friendly manner what you will not accept in a R.

Lou

[OG_Lou]

RE:heatherb

Then it's not so much like looking at cars anymore, is it? I guess I just thought part of being true to your spouse was not fantasizing about other people

I dont know how this fits in with your question but had to add what is another factor for me looking at other women.

I don't look if the pictures are professionally posed like on covers of magazines. I look for some that look amatureish and they usually are couples. Some are of people that do not have perfect bodies but appear to be enjoying what they are doing together or alone. Some are short video clips you find free on the internet, put there by the participants. Kind of "look at the fun we are having." If it looks controling, hurtfull, criminal, I don't look. The participants have to appear willing and eager.

So why do guys look? Adventerous, voyeristic, resentment for feeling left out at home, no negative emotional baggage associated with the people in the video clips, take what you want (very limited though) and don't have to give back, satisfying a biological courosity? When you mostly get rice and beans at home and you know there is cake and ice cream down the road, it is very enticing to look at the cake and ice cream even though you were warned that looking would cause someone at home to have their feelings hurt.

Need more on this line of thought? I would have to think more about it. Ask a particular question if one item seems to interest you. I don't want this to be about only me. I am exposing some reasons why I look and assume other guys have similar reasons for looking. Your H may have different reasons for looking.

Lou

[heatherg]

Thanks so much for taking the time to give me your thoughts. I appreciate it.

I think some peoples idea of "If I was pure, I would not want to ___________." is not realistic.

I fully agree. I'm not saying that having an occasional fantasy about someone or a particular situation is at all "unpure". In fact, I think it's healthy. I'm not against pornography by any means. I think it can be a hot addition to anybody's bedroom (or kitchen even ).
But I feel that MB and fantasizing on a consistent basis adds another level to just viewing for the sake of viewing and that is what I'm saying is not being true to the spouse. You're cheating inside your mind and that can be just as hurtful if it is as thought out and deliberate as what it seems to be with my H. I guess I'm having difficulty seeing regular MB as not "acting on it".
I don't know if my H MB or not~he won't either confirm or deny that. So my imagination and my gut tells me he does. Which is fine occasionally, I don't want to sound like a prude who thinks that touching oneself is dirty. I MB all the time. But most often, I think of H. And if it's not H, it's a person with no face or it's more about the situation than the particpants. I've never looked at a picture and imagined that person touching me or imagined myself touching them. That is just WRONG to me.
I think H's viewing goes beyond the occassional "outlet" or boredom viewing. When I find pics of other naked women on a thumb drive that he carries with him everywhere, it makes me feel threatened and like the pornography is more than what it should be.
Lou, I totally see where you are coming from. You've got a tough situation on your hands, with W so uninterested in pleasing you or herself. I feel for you and think that porn is probably a safe outlet for you. But from the sounds of it, it's just that~an outlet. My H has never put as much effort into our R as you seem to have, with telling me that I'm not meeting his needs. Maybe in his own way, he thought he tried. And looking back, I can remember statements like "we only do it when you want it" etc. But I thought I wanted it often enough and when we had it, it was great, confirmed by him. So I didn't recognize the statements as a problem.
But if my H were looking b/c I wasn't putting out, why such the care in picking out the pics, etc? Why not just check out a few, MB and get on with it?? Why save certain ones? Maybe I'm making too much of it, but it concerns me that H seems very particular about it. Seems. I realize I may be assuming too much.

I still maintain my power unless you think your H will use what you tell him to inflict some revenge. If he does that, you still have power by stating firmly and in a friendly manner what you will not accept in a R.

Our R has tons of revenge built in. We are becoming the War of the Roses. I cannot trust that my thoughts are safe with H and vice versa with him and the porno. He says I use it against him. And I have. The hurt feels like heartburn and I repeated his words back to him, like "I like to look at beautiful women". I can't help it. That is SOO disrespectful. SOOOOOOOOOOO disrespectful, in the boundaries we have set for our R. I can't forget the words, I hear them all the time.
I know my R boundaries and I know H would NOT be happy to hear those words from me or to find pics of other guys in my personal stuff. He won't even let me get a vibrator that's shaped like a real penis for crying out loud. There is such a double standard that it slaps me in the face.
And even if he were fine with it, men are visual. Women are more emotional. So, he is having his needs met by looking at porno. He's all set apparently. But where do I go to get my emotional needs met? How can he not see the similarities in what we did, him with porno and me with OM???? Am I grasping at straws?

[heatherg]

Update~
Last night I did initiate a discussion. There were some positives, but overall, I'm not very happy with the way I handled it.
Negatives~
1.I talked WAY too much. Should have just tried to validate and listen.
2.I couldn't persuade him to talk about his feelings on the porno issue. He doesn't trust that I won't use it against him. He told me he could not discuss it with me b/c I'm a bitter and spiteful woman.
3.He got the impression that I was snooping b/c of some of the things I said. I have been snooping.
4.He just turned it all back on me. "So, I have a W who cheats on me, wants to ruin my kids lives, files for D, and snoops through my stuff...."

Positives~
1.I told him that we could talk about the A any time if he had questions that he needed to ask. I told him that as much as I want to put it behind me, I understand that he may still need to talk about it.
2.He acted like he was done with conversation and I didn't pursue. I went to bed. He then came to me. I told him he could sit on my bed. This was, what I think a normal conversation should be like. Both parties participating.

Overall though, I didn't do well, but at least I went to bed with the feeling that things were ok. He actually came into my room to say goodnight, so that's good.
But you know what they say, one step forward and three steps back. Here's the three steps back:
This morning I go out to my SUV and notice that some books I had in the back of the truck on divorce and custody are gone. We discussed those books last night and I told him they were from the early days when I needed to know more about what to expect. This morning the books were gone. I asked him where they were and he said "I thought you said last night you didn't need them anymore?" I said "I want them back please" He went in the house. I looked in the garbage can and there they were. I was livid. I went back in the house and screamed at him, "why would you do that?" H says "I thought you made it clear last night you didn't need them anymore", to which I responded "that is NOT the point!!!" "Oh, what is the point then Heather?" ARRGGHH!!! But I couldn't just leave well enough alone. Oh no. I had to go down to "his" room and go in his drawer and get the Playboy magazine that he denied having last night when I gave him the opportunity to come clean. I ripped it up and threw it in the back of his truck. Uh oh.
Yikes, first because I reacted. I should have just left. Yikes second because now he has solid proof that I was snooping.
I just keep digging my holes deeper and deeper. And H just keeps getting off without having to take any responsibility for what he's doing. B/c he'll turn the whole situation around on me. It won't matter that he took my stuff and threw it away. All that will matter is that I was snooping. It doesn't matter that I feel like he betrays my trust, it only matters that I betrayed his. It doesn't matter that he took my emails in the first place, it only matters that I reclaimed them by deleting them. It doesn't matter that he lies to me and hides things from me, it only matters that I snooped to discover it. It doesn't matter that he is not trying to make this R work, it only matters that I filed for D, apparently the person who actually files takes all responsibility for ending the M even when the other sp tells you over and over they don't care about you, don't need you and is only here b/c of the kids??? WTF!! And don't misunderstand. I don't need any of my POVs to be "right". I just want him to see the double standards when he blasts me for the same stuff he does!!
This is not the first time he's taken and/or destroyed my stuff.

Somebody please tell me, is there too much whining occurring on my behalf or is my H messing with my head???

[OG_Lou]

RE heatherg

I'm having difficulty seeing regular MB as not "acting on it".

Some people's dividing line is looking is sort of OK while touching or actively wanting to contact another person is over the line.

I don't know if my H MB or not~he won't either confirm or deny

I would guess he does at times. I think that is the norm, but not everyone is normal.

I MB all the time. But most often, I think of H.

Glad to hear you don't have those "touching oneself is dirty" feelings. I try to think of a good situation in the past when W was wanting me but too many incidents of some past rejections come up. Sometimes it is difficult to think "W" but I stil don't want to do the woman.

When I find pics of other naked women on a thumb drive that he carries with him everywhere, it makes me feel threatened and like the pornography is more than what it should be

I would say the thumb drive, it's more than I think would be normal. Is he trading them back and forth with some other guys? If he is, it sounds similar to boys swaping baseball cards.

with W so uninterested in pleasing you or herself.

She says the cuddling is heavenly, but she gets hot flashes and then that is eliminated too. BB lost interest for herself many years ago. She will do it for me but not very often and if one of 20 conditions (would have written 100 conditions but that is stretching it a bit) is not met, the encounter is off unless I put a lot of pressure on her. It becomes something that is related to anxiety, not sex and connecting emotionally. The latest downer is her frequent UTI's. It and the other things are almost enough for me to lose interest in sex and decide becoming LD is less frustrating. It's just about too draining sometimes. (sorry for the dumping)

I can remember statements like "we only do it when you want it" etc

That sounds familiar to me. He is telling you something so listen and explore this more with him. (based on my experience, I don't know what happened in your M. Spouses also rewrite the actual marrital history to conform to their feelings. So if some one was not getting it enough (2X a week in reality) they only remember the dry spell where you did it 1X a month and think that was what happened almost all of the time. BTDT.

Ones I got tired of being the lesd sex partner and decided to wait for BB to make the advance. It did not happen for 3 weeks and noe she said I was frigid most of the time. Funny thing I can remember getting so horny every couple of days an doing it 2X a week except for when I wanted her to initiate a couple of timed.

why such the care in picking out the pics, etc?

I suppose it is like other collecting hobbies. I collected wheat pennies when I was in 6th grade. I had most of them except a 1935S and a 1909vdb and 1909vbdS. All pennies looked alike but had different mint dates or mint places. The S's represented SanFrancisco, the D's were minted in Denver and tha plain ones with just the dates (no P were put on the coin) were minted in Philadelphia. A group of us boys were excited to find something just a little different. I think people have a built in collecting compulsion. I saw it when BB had QVC shopping channel on. The women wanted the newely introbuced 12" square inch fry pan because they had the 8", the 10", the 14" and the dutch oven in the same line. I heard "If you make it, I have to have" it so often. It was like if you did not have everything, the collection was incomplete or flawed.

BB does something similar with purses and shoes, different styles and collors.

H seems very particular about it.

I am particular too. No actors. no under age people, no rough stuff, no bathroom activities, people have to look like they are having at least some fun, typical couples mostly, ta-toos are a turn off. I guess I envy regular married 2X 3X a week sex and it shows in the things I do look at once a week.

in the boundaries we have set for our R

Did you two talk about or agree on any boundaries? Loks like more work is needed here. When I think about boundaries I don't think about his or her boundaries. I think about boundaries that I would want if I were male or female, kind of a person that could switch genders you see in movies.

He won't even let me get a vibrator that's shaped like a real penis for crying out loud

As a man, I would be concerned that the vibrator might be better than my real penis in some fashion. I know I am real and have human touch that a spouse would want but there is something like a competitive strain here, something like him wondering if he is good enough. Most likely not too far off from what you feel, like you might have been competition with the female nude pictures. BTW, I wish BB would have a vibrator. It might warm he up and I could always be there to take over. I would also like her to have some fun and would like to see some excitment in her life.

But where do I go to get my emotional needs met?

Get that figured out and e-mail me, better yet post it here on every forum under "Have Your Emotional Needs Met By Doing This" You would be a star.

, him with porno and me with OM???? Am I grasping at straws?

I guess in his mind, looking is not going over the line while physical touch is. BTW what you did is over the like but I don't see it as that bad of a thing for him to still carry on and continue to use it against you and justify staying distant in the M.

My W felt neglected and needed more attention from me about 25 years ago. She complained she was lonely. She was a SAHM, I worked full and part time jobs and she complained about a lot of things. She decided to pick up religion and had interest in the pastor. Once she made the statement "everyone makes mistakes." At the time I just agreed and recently with a little of "connecting the dots," have figured that her statement ment she had real feelings for the pastor. I never heard what she did other than her being at every meeting at church (3 a week). The guy was a charmer at first but turned out to be a phoney in many regards.

I wishes she would have come to me and insisted on some things she wanted to do with me instead of just complain she felt neglected.

Twenty five years later, I hear for the first time hew she was flirting with me while I was working at home. What I heard then were complaints, she was not getting enough attention. It's still almost the same way, complaints, but few "I want or lets do".

What I want is a statement like this. "Can you sit with me and watch this movie" What usually is said is " You are always too busy for me" I am posting this not to complain but to possibally give you ideas what you might be doing wrong and what to do instead, if you are doing something wrong. Maybe I am way off here. I don't know what you have or have not been doing and I don't know what your H respnds to.

I hope some of this helps. If it does, good, if not I gave it my best shot considering my personal situation, wisdom, and time I have.

Lou

[heatherg]

You know, I met H when I was 17 years old. I have been with him my entire adult life. If I had not been practically married since 17, I would have loved to do a lot of the more risque type stuff like maybe I would have been a dancer in a strip club or posted amateur porn. I guess I'm just so frustrated that there has been so much I couldn't do, I could have been, I COULD BE one of those girls. But instead I feel unwanted most of the time. Granted, feeling unwanted on a consistent basis has happened mostly since the A has been in the open. But I've been with this man for 13 years and this OM and these kisses have been my only indiscretion EVER. Even when we were dating. He's had lap dances before, etc. But never me. The double standard has existed since the day we met. I like attention. It's hard for me to be me without it.

Is he trading them back and forth with some other guys?

No, my H doesn't have friends. I'm not trying to be dry here, he really doesn't. His kids are his life in every sense of the word. Kids are D2 and S4. Everything in his life revolves around them. H does maintain his best friend from high school by talking on the phone once every couple of months. But other than that, my H is really anti-social even before we had kids. I've always had friends, H never participated in anything we did.

something like him wondering if he is good
enough

Precisely. What's good for the goose...

I never heard what she did other than her being at every meeting at church (3 a week).

Are you suggesting the possibility that "something" actually happened between the two of them?

If you don't mind my asking, have the two of you kept up with your physical appearances over the years? Are you still physically attracted to one another?

[OG_Lou]

have the two of you kept up with your physical appearances over the years?

By physical appearances do you mean, to an outsider do we get along? I would say most people would consider up dedicated to the M, or duty bound to keep things together.

Are you still physically attracted to one another?

In some ways but it is getting more difficult to stay that way and I am detaching little by little because once one problem gets some air time and some solutions, it seem to work a little while, then something else comes up and most of the time it is up to me to do most of the work if I want changes to take place. Most of the blame comes back to me. BB finds excuses whe she is lesser at fault usually because I did something first and she only reacted to what I did.

there has been so much I couldn't do

I don't think back much about what I could have done. I did my best with the time, money education, circumstances that i had at the time. BB was my only serious girlfriend. I guess I have had so little for so long before I was 22, BB's life looked so good compared to what I had. Almost no experience with other girls. Work was so important from the time I was 16 as I had to support myself and my mother from that point until I got married.

He's had lap dances before, etc. But never me. The double standard has existed since the day we met.

That sucks! I don't want or believe in lap dances.

Are you suggesting the possibility that "something" actually happened

I Dont know but I suspest little really happened other than gazes across the room. I know BB is attracted to men who apear to be powerful and charming.