OK, I am replying to your inputs in the raging debate on MLC issues.
Bruce: "In the case of trauma, psychosis, addiction there is substantial evidence to indicate and support people are often not "in their right mind" and have trouble with reasoning, decision making, reality and perception." Yes, it is hard to dismiss the WAS's actions as reflecting a loss of reasoning ability. However, in the case of most "normal" people who do become WAS's there must be a trigger for it. If you view human mental processes as being just that, dynamic evolving patterns of thought, the question is what possesses WASs to take paths that seem irrational. What I am saying is, when the WAS is in a situation of evaluating their emotional state, and the state of their most immediate relationship, i.e. the M, they can get overwhelmed by the problems if they do not address it in little bits as and when they show up. My WAW has the tendency to hold all the stuff in and she built resentments over time that I was unaware of. It got to the point that she was tipped over the edge. I.e. when faced with a problem any human being will resort to either "fight" or "flight", correct? Now, it seems to me that when the problem is perceived to be small said human being will attempt to "fight", i.e. work to address it. When they preceive it to be too much they will resort to "flight". Now, in midlife the "flight" response becomes all the more onerous because: 1. Time is running out. 2. There are a lot of external stressors, such as jobs, in-laws, money issues, kids, fall in energy levels, etc.
Now, given these issues, it is not clear to me that the WASs are making the most optimal decision by walking away based on cool rationalization. They are acting in panic mode. Which is what MLC is all about, a panic response brought on by fear and confusion.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
It's interesting that you bring up stress and the 'fight-or-flight' response, UD. Since W shared with me last not to not "assume the worst" with her, I've been rethinking me tendency to try to analyze or explain her behavior. If I try to simplify or label her, at some level, I'll be incorrect.
Although both men's and women's stress responses can be described by the flight-or-flight response pattern, new research suggests that women are more complex than that (figures, right? ), and may be better explained by a 'tend and befriend' pattern. Rather than adrenaline and other stress related hormones better explaining women's responses to things like kids, bills, career demands, a hormone called oxytocin (same one that helps milk be let down during breast-feeding) is at play, pulling a woman to seek out others for contact, reassurance, support.
Imagine if you would yet another biological difference b/t men and women, with male LBS wanting to quickly fix a problem with little discussion, even withdrawal, and the female WAS wanting to talk, rehash, connect.
I can think of many an occasion where I failed W in this regard.
Im sure there is lots of overlap b/t men and women. We're not truly separate Martian and Venutian species, yet the differences are there. And, likely, those very differences helped us to fall in love and be attracted to our WAS. In the long run, I'd imagine a happy middle-ground or flexibility will be needed to satisfy both parties.
My convo with W last night, including her "don't assume the worst" of her, was a loud reminder to me that, in this crucible of a sitch, this all boils down to the one key ingredient of unconditional love. We've got to feed and strengthen ourselves and love the WAS unconditionally for success. If we succeed, we'll be fed in return.
Quote: Now, given these issues, it is not clear to me that the WASs are making the most optimal decision by walking away based on cool rationalization. They are acting in panic mode. Which is what MLC is all about, a panic response brought on by fear and confusion
Knowing this may be of some comfort for you, but does it help you in your goal to reunite with WAW? Probably helps keep angriness and bitterness away, but will the insight bring her back? But as patient as you are I'm sure it is helpful in that it gives you at least a sense of how long you might have to wait. But if you look at it that way, is there something that a person can do to remove some of the built up burden so that they stop running? Or must they do it for themselves? BTW, if I had a flight reaction to say a rattlesnake or a bear, I wouldn't be coming back in their vacinity no matter how much they coaxed me, acted like they aren't dangerous, or put on lamb's clothing to fool me. I wouldn't even analyze my fear...I'd just recognize it and stay away. It's not the best analogy, but part of your wife's fear (and my wife's) is trusting you with her heart again. You're showing and saying "I'm not a rattlesnake" and she's thinking "yeah right...I remember the poison very well".
I don't know if Bruce was arguing against the existence of MLC. But I'm thinking he was saying..who cares what it's called..they left for whatever reason without regard for the family, they don't want back in, and if they couldn't hack it once maybe they can't again. Is that along the right lines Bruce? Or am I misstating your position?
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
And now to take this discussion off into another tangent, well, actually two here. (darn, neither one is about sex!)
With the MLCer going through some sort of identity crisis and I would think that we really won't know what they will be like in the end, and could even be a totally different person than the one we fell in love w/. Who will know if we will really want them back when they come out of their crisis?
Other tangent. I know this is totally against the dbing philosophy, but how would we really show our WAS unconditional love w/o any ILY's? Is it possible to say 'I still love you' in a kind caring manner w/o applying any pressure that we want an R? And could this be something they need to have confirmed every now and then to leave our door open to reconciliation? Or should we just remain in the detached mode?
Sorry, too many thoughts going through my head. I'll quit thinking now......or maybe just think about sex? T
Quote: how would we really show our WAS unconditional love w/o any ILY's? Is it possible to say 'I still love you' in a kind caring manner w/o applying any pressure that we want an R?
Can't apply the same principles to everyone. I love you may be what is needed to do a 180.
Yeah, I've said it. I said it Saturday night...looked in my ex-W's eyes and said I love you. She didn't say it back, but in some way we got to the point where I was asking..."don't you think you're lovable?" and affirming that she was in fact lovable. To which she said "then what took you so long to love me if I'm so lovable?" And I said "that was a hold-up in me. It didn't have anything to do with how lovable you are." Will saying it and the conversation help any? Doubtful. I probably set my self back with the pressure. Or then again, maybe it is something that will stick with her as I give her space over the next several weeks.
But for some situations where the person that left did so because they didn't ever hear I love you or feel the love, maybe that is the right answer. But I would bet in general, and T I think you are in this category, that saying ILY is too much pressure. You might be better served by being more hard to get rather than the pursuer. But none of our situations are exactly the same so I don't think we can necessarily say "it goes against DBing", because sometimes it may actually be what is needed.
Anyway, sorry no talk about sex.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Everything works for Wes! j/k (I know that stick upside the head still hurts!)
I am thinking more in general terms, does the MLCer feel unloved and unwanted and really who knows? Every individual is different. I may be wrong here but I tend to relate those that are in MLC as being similar to teenagers, reliving those years. And maybe it's just the parent in me that's saying a little show of love can help them grow.
In my own sitch, ex has stated that in the past; ie. I don't have that sparkle in my eye for him. So, no, I won't be giving out any ILY's for a while, but he might just happen to notice the 'sparkle' is back.
Hmm....I am really glad my thread is being used for this great discussion. Well, regarding the ILY issue, it all depends on what your love language is. Mine is AOS and WAW knows it too. So, every time I do something for her these days I am expressing my unconditional love for her. My WAW is no fool, she knows it. Now, I dont want to do it so much that she feels stifled or pressured. But I do it occasionally and it is usually fairly well received. In any case, as Michelle says "actions speak louder than words". Lately, my WAW has been doing little acts of service for me as well, indicating baby steps in my direction. Overall, I believe that the greatest measure of unconditional love that we can express is to : listen, validate, empathize, be patient, treat the WAS well, GAL, give space, be gentle, change ourselves for the better, do not assign blame, wish the best for them, support them through their hard times, etc. If the WAS does not turn around after a protracted period of demonstrating these actions, then at least we would have gotten back to becoming wonderful human beings and there is clearly a great deal of spiritual growth that has been accomplished.
This whole thing is a spiritual malaise that has crept into the M, our WAS and the LBS. It is a time for cleansing of our souls and concentrated self-improvement. Our WAS may miss this opportunity for growth. We would be fools and no better than the WASs if we too lie around in denial, rancor, or self-flagellation and self-pity and do not place ourselves on a higher spiritual plane through all this. Adn it is very, very hard to do so. To see past the pain and reach for the light at the other end of the tunnel. Ultimately though that will be our salvation, both for our own spirit, as well as the only way in which we can draw back our WASs. Some people find religion in experiences like this. While I respect that, being an agnostic with Buddhist leanings, I find myself looking at it more from a spiritual standpoint than religious. (I do watch and enjoy Joel Osteen on TV though ).
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Quote: If the WAS does not turn around after a protracted period of demonstrating these actions, then at least we would have gotten back to becoming wonderful human beings and there is clearly a great deal of spiritual growth that has been accomplished.
And my first timeline on seeing if my actions have done anything has only produced some baby steps.
My own spiritual growth has accelerated some in the past two years. But I haven't seen it much from ex's side. Not that it matters at this point, only working w/my beliefs.
I guess my ILY ? was actually similar to the discussion we had previously on the guilt issue. Until the WAS wants to face it, we are going down another cheeseless tunnel!
), and may be better explained by a 'tend and befriend' pattern. Rather than adrenaline and other stress related hormones better explaining women's responses to things like kids, bills, career demands, a hormone called oxytocin (same one that helps milk be let down during breast-feeding) is at play, pulling a woman to seek out others for contact, reassurance, support. 
).