Thanks for your input. Hmm....your W's adoption of alternate couture is really interesting. definitely an MLC trait. I want to discuss something here to gain some perspective and make sure I am not bonkers. Also, you guys may want to provide feedback on how your W's have changed in their behaviors from pre-bomb.
After a long time of being completely at sea as to what happened to my W, I began to hone in on MLC as an explanation. I want to put down what I think were the triggers for this and also what the signs are that make me believe that she is going through it. So here goes.
Possible triggers of my W's MLC:
1. Death of her dad in Jan 2001. (He died young, mid-fifties from a slowly debilitating ailment that lasted 10 years). Her mom had a hysterectomy around that time as well. 2. Birth of child in July 2002. 3. New job in December 2002. Her feeling insecure about her intellect in her new job due to fact that most colleagues came from highly educated family backgrounds and ivy-league schools while her background was more modest. 4. Marriage in doldrum phase. Lots of stressors in the marriage including my work, illness in my family, her parents' ill-health and their poor financial condition requiring lots of help from us. 5. Lots of friends going through MLC.
The signs of MLC that I see in my W:
1. Extreme self-centeredness. 2. Frequent complaints of health problems (headaches, shortness of breath at one point, she actually had congestive heart failure at point (in 2004), fatigue and lack of sleep). 3. Preoccupation with her looks and body. She started spending a fortune around 2-3 years ago on cosmetics. 4. Spends a lot of time at happy hours with colleagues. 5. Spends money like it is going out of style. On clothes (younger fashions), eating out, hair redo (changed style to younger look, like one of those females on Friends, recently with blonde streaks in hair). 6. Extreme pre-occupation with diet and weight. 7. Looks like she has aged a lot in the past couple of years, and despite exercising does not look as fit as she did. 8. Much more irritable, particularly with me, but also with her mom, slightly less so with D3. 9. Focuses all conversations on herself. If I say something positive about my life, she will immediately counteract with cool goings on in hers. 10. Has cut off contact with past good friends after declaring she has nothing in common with them. 11. Changes in diet from almost purely vegetarian to meat-based. 12. Lot of questioning of values (particularly pertaining to marriage). Lots of questioning of past/present relationships, even with her own family. 13. Extreme oscillations in her moods, almost on a day-to-day basis, or at best week-to-week.
I don't know if I am misreading her or not. Seems to me like an MLC, but who knows?
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Don't know enough about MLC to make any kind of intelligent statement, but whatever you call it she is in a phase where she needs to discover herself. I think that regardless of what you call it, divorced women seem to at least display some of these features. The urge to rediscover lost youth, act younger, dress younger, get tattoos or new piercings, at least superficially change values that at one point seemed ingrained, critical of themselves and others, dissatisfaction with life, openly expressing an urge for independence. Unfortunately reality at some point has to set in. A person cannot maintain this outlook indefinitely. The pendulum has to swing back.
I don't know if we'll still be waiting when the pendulum does swing. My wife has some of that. I've tried to fit in to this new attitude, although I don't know if I/we really should. Basically I guess I've been accepting that she seems a little weird right now.
You've said time and again that this has to run its rather protracted course. If you get the chance I would suggest being very accepting of the new her. It might take some of the fun out of it for her.
P.S. I hate weekends in general if I don't have my kids. I'm lonely. I miss my wife. I should e-mail you a song. But maybe I'll just post the lyrics on my thread.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Thanks for your post. I am being extremely accepting of whatever my W is doing right now. And you know what, I actually like my W being loose like this. When we first met, she was 21 and she was definitely loose at that time. In fact, as she got older she has tended to become tight and withdrawn and that just was not her.
This weekend has turned out to be much like any other. W, D3 and I did the usual things Saturday and Sunday.
Saturday was W's birthday. I went against all DB principles (i.e. I took the Wes approach) and bought my W some nice clothes from Ann Taylor for her B'day. She accepted them although I did make it out like it was a gift from D3. So I softened the pursuit element. She hasn't withdrawn from me yet although this morning she was a bit frosty on the phone. I also bought a cake and D3 and I sang B'day song to her. She was quite emotional at that. So, I dont know, kind of a weird couple of days.
More later. Gotta go pick up D3.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
The thing I really struggle with is why we shouldn't give gifts for b-day (and I include mother's day too). I don't care how frosty the spouse is, this is the b-day of someone I care about and so I feel a gift is appropriate. I believe that even if poorly received at first that it has to stick with them somewhere. I might have shied away from clothes as a choice, but you know your wife and I don't. Clothes, jewelry, that sort of thing are something that will have some connotation when worn (ie..the clothes, jewelry, etc from my H) and also might be remarked upon (ie nice clothes UD's wife...where did you get them?). Some things are just functional. I chose a i-pod mini for my wife this year whereas my typical gift would have been jewelry or perhaps clothes. It's not her b-day yet, but when I went over she made a point of showing me that she had opened it already. She said "you told me I could" and I said "no, I just asked if you did" and then she playfully flipped me off. She was really stoked about it. She asked for some help in trying to remove some songs and she mentioned the i-pod several times yesterday.
I wasn't busting your chops about the gift. I completely approve of giving gifts for special occasions...it shows thoughtfulness (Michelle I don't care what you say...I read your book to mean no gifts out of the blue for no reason). Just my thoughts on perhaps why the gift didn't sound well received (or am I reading into that?) I'm glad you got to spend that time with your W. Hope you have a great 4th.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I'm not sure about the gift-giving. Taking from your and Wes' sitches, gifts that mimic or respect their new MLC 'tudes of trying s/t new might fit, with those that reflect the "same ol' , same ol'" perhaps not. I'm not sure.
Like you, UD, I'm using the MLC as a backdrop for my understanding, without using it to pathologize or disrespect my W. She needs to grow, and is doing so in a rather safe fashion. I've got to leave it at that.
How are you hanging in there within this tough D process? I recall that the weeks/mos prior to D were like Chinese water torture.
Last year, 4 days after she moved out was my birthday, and I received NOTHING.
This year, oh yea, NOTHING.
Last fall, on her birthday I gave her a card.
I guess I am confused and guilty, why we treat these WAW as we do? I know Wes will profess unconditional love, feelings, desire, etc.
If we were the ones to walk out on the M and be selfish how do you believe they would treat us? Certainly not with the kind, caring open-heart many of us offer, in my opinion.
Another thing we all want to do is label, identify, quantify and somehow measure the behavior the WAS exhibits, must be all great academic minds think alike. But truth be told, we cannot begin to understand or comprehend what they are doing or why and I know I've tried and I make myself crazy trying to understand.
Yes, we cannot hope to understand what the heck is going on in the WAW minds. There is a lot of fear, anger, hurt and other feelings there that do not fall under the category of rational by any means. If the WAW is in MLC then it is obvious thet nobody, including them, knows what the heck is going on in their minds on any given day.
It is indeed futile to try to figure out their thought processes. However, if we do not monitor their behavior (at least their average behavior over a period of time -say weeks) how are we to detect any baby steps or even trends in their behavior. I have been in this for 2 years now guys and I do detect a trend in my WAW's behavior. The same is the case with my friend whose MLC-WAH came back after 3 years. There was a pattern. The key is to observe, record and discuss sustained trends in the WAW's behavior over extended periods of time without reacting to the daily insanity or the two-steps-forward-one-step-back vicissitudes.
Bruce, your words of caution on not trying to analyze every move of our WASs is well taken. But is it not DBing to experiment and monitor results (Michele's timelines are 4-6 weeks for the process of experiment and data collection). I believe this is a bit optimistic and assumes linear progression of WAW behavior. I would say more like 2-3 months.
Again, my observation of WAW's pattern, as with what I have heard from experienced hands in observing MLCs (Snodderley and others on the midlifeforum website) is that the process takes 3-4 years. My timelines so far: 1. Year 1 - WAW in anger and replay. I am in denial. (WAW's sentiment - you are the problem. My sentiment - WTF happened to you?) 2. Year 2 - WAW in withdrawal, depression, and brief visits to earlier stages of six MLC stages. WAW starts to briefly reconnect with old friends and me. I am in anger. (WAW sentiment - this is nobody's fault. She even said to me : "thanks for being so good to me through this" My sentiment - How can she do this to D3?) 3. Year 3 - WAW hovering in withdrawal, less depression, reconnecting in hit-and-run ways. Shrinking of physical space. Her sentiment - I dont know how to come back. My sentiment - whatever.
I do believe that: a) there is a long-term pattern. b) That we can influence this long-term pattern by our behavior and response. There are no guarantees but we are not powerless.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
I finally received two books on MLC, and I'm hoping they help me to increase my sense of compassion for W.
Quote: It is indeed futile to try to figure out their thought processes. However, if we do not monitor their behavior..., how are we to detect any baby steps or even trends in their behavior...The key is to observe, record and discuss sustained trends in the WAW's behavior over extended periods of time without reacting to the daily insanity or the two-steps-forward-one-step-back vicissitudes.
Any sense of predictability provided by knowing a general pattern would be helpful.
As always, that 3-4 yr timeline is very sobering. Wow...makes GAL work all the more necessary.
I am clearly in the minority here and is not doubt keeping me from moving forward.
But I have little compassion for WAW. They quit on the M and R and left their H and their family.
If they had to come to us and said "Hey, something does not feel right, I might need some time to sort things out, but I would like your help and you and the M and the family are important to me."
But in my specific case, she did not. She said she could not do this anymore. She could not come home everynight and be unfulfilled. Something is missing and she did not know what? So she quit and I still have trouble getting over that.
I would gladly have done anything for her and the M and us but was never given the chance.
So, until I get past that, I am going to have a difficult time being her "friend" or having compassion.
But I am amazed at your guys efforts and feelings for the X.
But I have little compassion for WAW. They quit on the M and R and left their H and their family.
Well that's what a WAW does. Can't be a full fledged, card carrying WAS if you don't. If you're expecting a WAS to think and react the same way as you, the LBS, that could lead to maybe why you're having that block.
I would gladly have done anything for her and the M and us but was never given the chance.
So, until I get past that, I am going to have a difficult time being her "friend" or having compassion.
Are you expecting the "chance" to be issued by invite? It probably won't be. You are being given the chance, but it requires being her friend and having compassion and letting the resentment go. Ah, what a process, where the answer to the riddle is the riddle.
I miss my wife. I should e-mail you a song. But maybe I'll just post the lyrics on my thread.