This is one statement I see surface time and time again throughout these conversations, arguments, the "alien" behavior theory. I disagree. I believe these are the people we married, but overlooked or dealt with many of their "now" negative behvaiors.
Quote: Seriously what does she bring to the table? Why am I so interested in this pursuit? Is it just because I can't have her?
You, I suspect, like many of us, want another chance. A chance to be the better partner we now know we can be. An opportunity to atone for the mistakes you know you made and hopefully to work through issues that plagued the past. And you have been given some chances to do so. But right now, our relationship failure rate is 100% and frankly we would like to get one right.
I thought I would always be married to her. We spent a fair amount of our lives together, there are children and there was family and I took my belief in marriage and our vows seriously, as everyone here does. And we are hurt and disappointed they gave up and quit.
We know we contributed to this situation and would like an opportunity to make amends. Would there have to be SIGNIFICANT changes in the relationship and their behavior? Absolutely. Is this likely to happen? The intial feeling is, no.
A comment on your earlier behaviors, which I'm beginning to see led you here.
You pursed the R talk and of course, it did not go the way you played it out in your own mind countless times. Then you were angry and frustrated and hurt. Said you were not going to chase, pursue, intiate ANYMORE. Then within hours, you are calling, inviting, going by, asking her how this and that is?
You either ignored yourself or I think you reached the point where right now you don't completely care if she comes back fully into the R. The pursuit at this point is more enjoyable than the outcome.
Thanks for the advice. I didn't call. I didn't think I could handle that well enough or say just what I wanted to say and nothing more. So I sent an e-mail. Here it is along with the reply.
Good morning Deborah,
I just wanted to drop you a quick note to say Happy Anniversary. I know. That's weird. But I appreciate the time we had together. I just wanted to thank you for sharing a portion of your life with me, making the effort to treat my kids very well and accept them, and making all those swimming trips even though it ate away most of our weekends. Despite the end result I don't regret having had the opportunity to have you as my wife and friend.
Have a nice day Deb.
Love, Wes
Reply:
Good morning, Wesley. Happy Anniversary to you. I'm crying but I guess that's natural. xo d
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I once knew a pretty Mexican girl named Esperanza in high school - so it cracks me up to call you that!
Happy Anniversary, Wes! It meant something very wonderful just a bit ago, and I hope it does again in your near future.
Its been said before that the LBS rides a rollercoaster just like the WAS does. Maybe this is a down time for you? You're right that we're working very hard on positive change and the typical WAS isn't. Yet, I think that Michelle's focus on the R is key. If we change, we can pull our WAS to change as well. She is noticing your changes, Wes. Otherwise, she wouldn't be circling so much. Her behavior in this regard seems way beyond just liking familiarity.
In terms of the MLC-type stuff, let it go. Its her way of doing her work - exploring, answering questions, just like all/most of us did as teens - first liking one music/type of friend, then another - all to answer that very key question. Who am I?
She's circling you b/c she's probably experiencing some pleasure while doing so, and may be starting to realize that part of her identity is a woman who is pleased by your presence in her life. Give her time to admit that, and you'll be left with at least a good friend, setting the basis for perhaps more in the future.
I read through all this but probably won't address it all. But yes...I took the vows seriously and really meant "til death do us part". And yes, part of it is that I think I could do better, but am still worried that my efforts wouldn't be enough. Those comments I think are right on.
Bruce, her behaviors that I was talking about she absolutely DID NOT do at any point up until the last 6-9 months. These aren't things I ignored or overlooked. They are actually new to her. This was a woman who was completely self-sufficient when I met her and extremely good with her money. Now she seems free with it (since she took quite a bit of our joint money with her when she went). It truly is not like her. I e-mailed this woman for the last 5 years. I know how she writes and the way she does it now is not the same. I feel she might be rebelling against getting older. Don't know. But it is different.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
You are getting too wise for your own good. You seem to have reached a level of zen. I like the attitude though. You are certainly perfecting putting yourself in others shoes. Thanks for the wise comments. I'll internalize them.
Me
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
I am with you on all that you have written. My W is doing EXACTLY what you are saying your W is doing. But, I have to tell you this is standard MLC behavior. I dont know if you have read up on MLC. If not, there are som very good books on it that I can recommend. You are, my friend, asking some very complex questions. And there are no simple answers. If you said "do I want this R because: a) I love this woman, 2) She is a habit that I cannot break, 3) she heats me up, 4) She drives me crazy, 5) She is unattainable at present, etc. etc." I would say yes to all of those. I have not been able to compartmentalize and answer the whys and hows of my feelings for my wife. It is a safe bet that your W cannot either. She is as lost and confused as you are. She is world-weary on her midlife. she wants to recapture some of your youth, she sees old age coming, she is wondering what it will be like, there is fear, there is uncertainty, there are hormones. Now it is your choice. Are you going to stay with this woman and see this relationship to its conclusion (either way) or not. You make that choice, this is a spiritual decision, not a rational one. It involves a leap of faith. And there are no guarantees. But, you have to make a plan and prepare for the long haul. You may have to sit back and watch your W flail around and seek the answer from the web or from her new-found friends or whatever. You will have to exercise the utmost patience. You always have the choice of moving on however. I have been here for two years now and I know that this is not an easy game to play. But I am choosing to play it. Nobody is forcing me. At this point not even my conscience is forcing me because I am confident that whatever mistakes I made in my relationship I have more than atoned for them. But I am doing it because I believe that deep down my W is a wonderful sweet person and I love that person. She is not, in her behavior, the person that I met and married any more and she may never be that same person again. But everybody changes and grows and it is sort of silly to expect that my W will be the same all her life. I did not sign up for that. I want her to grow and I will learn to love whatever she grows into. But it is my choice to stay and see this thing through.
This thing is a test of your character really. It will test whatever you believe and whatever you have at your core. No doubt about it. Now, I see a lot of positives in your sitch. Your consistent problem, because of the positives, is that your expectations are always high. It is very difficult to manage our expectations. When your expectations are not met you try to rationalize(and I know this from personal experience my friend, I am not pointing fingers at you, I am telling you what I am going through by subsituting "you" for "I" here). In the process of rationalizing something that defies rationale one of the thoughts that you come up against is "This does not make any sense, why am I in this, dont I deserve better". I am sure you do deserve better. So these thoughts are natural. But I bet tomorrow morning you will wake up and there will be a little dull pain in your chest that reminds you that you miss the scent of your W's hair on your pillow and then you will call her again just to hear her voice.
My recomendation to you: Please send your W a nice bouquet of flowers and a simple card wishing her happy anniversary. (pursuit? yes, but you have been pursuing her in so many non-serious ways, if you dont pursue her on a serious occasion, wont she question your seriousness? I believe that dropping pusruit should be done gradually and not suddenly, but that is just me).
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
Quote: My recomendation to you: Please send your W a nice bouquet of flowers and a simple card wishing her happy anniversary. (pursuit? yes, but you have been pursuing her in so many non-serious ways, if you dont pursue her on a serious occasion, wont she question your seriousness? I believe that dropping pusruit should be done gradually and not suddenly, but that is just me
I like the idea of flowers, but I already sent the e-mail (see earlier post of today) and so I worry that will be a little much even for me. She's already taken a "guilt hit" from me. I figure now she can have the opportunity to think about things. I'll let her take the lead from here. Thanks
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Better make this snappy since I got up late this morning.
First, discussing a R with ex-W isn't worth having with anyone but the people on this board. Friends and family actually don't understand how strong this process makes a person. For example I heard this morning..."you can't go on hoping that something will come of your R you'll just kill yourself." Or was it "it's not healthy". Whatever. That's the expected response. Us DBers with our heads in the sand really don't care to hear it though.
Okay...updates. No contact after W returned my e-mail until around 3 or 4. She called and asked if I was mad at her. Then asked a favor...could I watch the kids while she went to the gym. Later she felt guilty about that and said she didn't want me to feel used. I told her that I wanted the opportunity to see the kids.
Due to some stuff with my 1st ex-w and my kids along with the anniversary and stuff I guess I was out of sorts. When I went to get the kids I avoided anything that would even give the impression I wanted a hug. Same behavior when she came to pick them up along with being a little more aloof. She picked up on it and asked what was wrong. I could tell she wanted to hug and maybe hang out. I told her "nothing was wrong" but I wanted very badly to get away. I tried to give the ring back in an envelope saying "it's not mine." but she just said "keep it". She actually left fairly upset/angry. I just didn't want to deal with her last night.
I did call her to apologize and tell her that my attitude was not solely about her or our anniversary. She was pretty sweet asking if I wanted to talk about it. She actually sounded concerned. I told her no then spent until 1:00 am playing cards. That was fun, but I didn't get the stuff I wanted to do done.
So anyway...this morning...4:30 am she calls. I can't believe she called that early. But she said she couldn't sleep and she wanted to know what was the matter. I gave her a rundown and said it was just a combination of things and I fine...sorry if I was snotty. She was clearly concerned. She also asked if it was okay if she came over and mowed the lawn today (duh...of course not j/k)
I'm beat. Not much sleep. So I'm struggling to even think about this. I do know that the early morning call was more the behavior I remember. Before when we argued, etc, it didn't matter to her what time it was things had to get resolved. If I cut off a conversation short or hung up 50 times she'd call 51. Maybe it's a good sign, but I'm too beat to appreciate it.
Well ta ta for now. Have a nice Thursday everyone.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Quote: She picked up on it and asked what was wrong.
Isn't this amazing? Here, they quit, leave the marriage, for some time don't want to talk about it or us or anything. But the minute we are out of sorts and don't want to talk or act overfriendly, they get upset, want to know what's wrong, why are we mad, etc? Personally drives me crazy.
XW does this is if I don't talk to her for a couple of days, saying something like, "Are you ignoring me on purpose?" or "Are you mad about something?"
What do you imagine she would have done if you had called her at 430 in the morning? I suspect she would have been less than pleased.
It's funny how as long as we follow their rules, it's ok, but when we want time alone, to sort through things, or contemplate or just forget about stuff, it makes them angry.
Bruce is right on target here. I have the same sort of "WTF" moment when I am a little off-PMA and my W picks up on it (and boy, do they have sensitive sensors for PMA) and goes "what's wrong". It really actually makes my PMA go through the floor when she does that.
From experience anniversaries are extremely hard. Birthdays and other occasions are hard as well but the hardest are anniversaries and Christmas. I am really dreading this year's.
Let the weirdness of the past few days die down and you will bounce back to your normal (?) interactions with your W.
UD
The 3 laws of DBing:
1. PMA is critical to DBing.
2. Since drop in WAW's PMA leads to drop in LBS's PMA and vice-versa detachment is critical.
3. Validate to raise WAW's PMA and GAL to raise LBS's.
I like the attitude though. You are certainly perfecting putting yourself in others shoes. Thanks for the wise comments. I'll internalize them.