No need for apologies, ME1967. I was exaggerating just a bit with the "tear me a new one" comment. Anyway, if anyone should know to "assume goodwill" in online conversations like that, I should. I didn't mean to freak you out there...
Unfortunately, sometimes I have the worst problem with those nonverbal signals of tone and body language. I can't read them unless they're blatantly obvious, and I have trouble controlling the ones I send. Maybe that's another reason why I "walk on eggshells"--because, even if I phrase my words correctly, my tone or body language could cause my wife to get upset, so I keep erring so far on the side of caution that I sabotage my own cause. Is there any way for me to turn that "sensitivity knob" down?
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
Something that has worked WONDERS with my H and I on communication...and avoiding walking on eggshells is counseling; I really believe you and your W could benefit from this too.
Right now it does appear you treat your W with kid gloves, that's simply not a good thing in a M. You are afraid to tell her things you really need to for fear of driving her away, although you have recently done some difficult things in the communication dept....but it took quite a big for you to finally do it (not a criticism merely a fact and something the majority of us are dealing with).
The way I see it is you and your W have a couple of problems...#1 her bi-sexuality (she's confused about it), and #2 communication (not necessarily in this order).
If you feel that your body language and words don't necessarily match up in conversations, and you still come off the way you didn't intend to...then a C can help you learn to communicate in a more effective manner. Yes, you can learn to do this without a C, BUT you would have to do a lot more talking than you are right now....and for you, I feel the C's office would provide you and your W neutral ground with someone to mediate and help avoid misunderstandings....until you learn to communicate to her without fear that you'll be misunderstood....or drive her away.
It sounds to me that your W is the more dominate personality in your R, that's ok....I hope that doesn't bother you, I happen to be the more dominate personality in my R too. It's not a bad thing....it's just out of two people one is always the more dominate...not domineering, but dominate (there's a BIG difference).
Would seeing a C (if only for yourself) be something you could swing? I did this for awhile and explained to my H that there are things "I" needed help to work on some things too...things to help our R be better. I had intended on going to an IC, but instead we have both been working on our issues w/our MC together. I think there is a certain comfort in my H seeing that I really do want to work on myself...not work on skills to manipulate and re-mold him (he's had others attempt to do this).
Greeneyedlass, I really, really doubt we could swing that at the present time. Our financial situation just won't permit it. Especially since I've heard rumblings that the company I work for may not be on stable ground for much longer. For all I know, I may be out trying to find a new job and worrying about how to pay the rent again. I've been down that road before; it's no fun.
At least my leg is doing better; I can walk around the apartment a bit more without the crutches, and I can release the hinges and bend my knee to get into the driver's seat, so I'm less helpless on a personal level. I'll be scheduling physical therapy to start this coming week, at a clinic near my office, maybe the same therapist I worked with previously. My wife has made her pre-surgical appointment with her orthopedist for later this month, the earliest he could squeeze her in.
Wish I had better news to offer you. Is there any other possible solution I can employ, short of the counseling?
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
Well to be honest with you, the only other thing I can think of is simply to talk to her, more often, about those things that are difficult for you. If you are looking for feedback from her tell her that, if you are just wanting to get something off your chest, tell her that too.
Other than that...if you haven't yet picked up the book "The Five Love Languages" pick that up and read it....it really can give you great information on how to communicate your feelings for her in a manner she can understand, there's also a little quiz in the back for men and women...it could be a good thing for you two to take and talk about.
Remember though, that YOU have to talk with her...so when something's bothering you...and you get that "walking on egg shells" feeling....make a note to give yourself a mental kick in the butt as necessary....because it's when you feel that way that it's most important to suck it up and bust through that wall.
I'm glad to hear you have more mobility.
So...any word from her yet since your talk? One thing you will find the LD spouse often does is not re-visit a conversation. You will say what you need to, they will respond for a bit (better than they had been) and then they will think you have been satisfied and settle right back into their previous behavior.
The card you bought her was very sweet, it as a nice gesture on your part and I completely understand why you did that...and think it's great. Don't be surprised though if that little kind gesture gives her a sense of "you're ok with things now". I'm certainly not saying, discontinue things like that...I'm not at all saying that....just be prepared that she "could" behave as though everything is ok now.
Greeneyedlass, I'm not so strapped that I can't swing the purchase of a book...especially since I can now go out at lunchtime again (yay!) and there are two big bookstores within easy lunchtime driving distance of the office. I'll look for that book.
No real word from her yet. She hasn't heard back from the three psychs she called; I told her, if she hasn't heard from any of them in a week, to call three others from the list. First one that calls her back, she'll talk to about an appointment for her sleep-related stuff. As for touching, I can usually touch her in affectionate-non-sex ways, such as stroking her back, upper arms, or hair, holding her hand, and getting a hug from her. If I do this out of the blue, she's likely to ask, "Are you okay?", as if I'm seeking her out because something's wrong. (Well, something is wrong, else why would I be here? But that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with wanting to hug her.) Just now, when I did that, I asked her in response how she was. She said, "I'm tired, I think I need more red meat." I offered to go out and get her a burger, since I can now do that , but she declined.
I may want to look for that book and read it before I push further. That will give her a chance to maybe hear back from a psych, or at least to not feel like I'm "obsessing."
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
Some additional information I forgot to include but which might be relevant:
She's still helping me with baths, either the sponge-baths or the total-immersion variety (in her bathtub, since it's easier for me to get into at this point than mine). She also assists with my moisturizing and anti-itch treatments, to my exposed leg and feet (both legs if I've done a full immersion) and to my back. When she does my back, though, the treatment generally feels like half moisturizing, half massage--and it feels really good. I generally tell her that it feels good and I enjoy it, but I wonder if she may be doing this in response to my bringing up the sex question, either as a partial way to respond to my desires, or as a "diversion tactic" while she thinks up more excuses not to go farther. And, if so, which could it be?
Second, while I was still in the bathroom shaving, still naked (except for my brace and related parapernalia of course!), she walked in, also nude, to pick up some of my washcloths for washing. She explained that she was waiting for her bath to fill. I should note that she has generally never been body-shy around me here at home; she'll walk around past me nude or semi-nude while doing other things and not think twice about it. (Oh, of course I look! Are you kidding? ) Now, had I not been standing there with shaving cream all over my face, that might have been a good opportunity to do some non-threatening touching of bare skin, or maybe give her a hug. Would doing something like that help? Or maybe just, when she does pass by showing some skin, say something like "Hi, beautiful"? Not crude, mind you, just appreciative. Would that improve matters, or make them worse?
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
Ok...what's with the magic "week"? I've noticed that tends to be a time frame you use when doing things with her....first talk you were going to wait a week, then talk again, now you've asked her to call some psych's and wait a week to hear from them...then call more if none calls?
I'm not sure if you intend to do this, but it's not really helpful in your sitch. In my experience, when it comes to calling counselors etc....they will call you back within a day or so (unless out of town) or you aren't going to hear back from them. By giving her these week time-frames all you are accomplishing is putting things off...and you are providing her with the excuse to put things off too. I believe this is you walking on egg-shells again in an attempt not to push her....well sometimes we need to push.
This is important to you, her working her issues out is important to you (and should be to her too, I'm sure it is)...push for her to find someone who will talk with her...don't conveniently hand her the excuse of "giving it a week and then call more" to not deal with things NOW.
This is a trap many of us fall into....and I know you are just working your courage up to do many things, so having to do some of the things you are advised right now is difficult for you. But, keep in mind you can do these things without sounding demaning/pushy. Here's what I mean...."Honey, if you haven't heard back from those other pyshc's you called by today...why not call some others? That doesn't mean you cannot go with someone else if they should call you back...but it may give you a broader pool to choose from...and you just may find the one you like the best quicker."
Really, this is what I did when it came to finding our C. I called several...the ones who didn't call me back were obviously not the right fit for me, or they would have had the common courtesy to return the call....the one who called us back the quickest and took the time to listen a bit on the phone and give a bit of feedback...she's the one we went with. And...she called back quickly.
I'm glad to hear you're mobile again, I'm sure that's a HUGE relief to you too!
In response to these questions....do what you feel. If you feel like giving her a compliment, do it...if you feel like reaching out and touching her, do it.
I don't mean this to sound cruel, so I hope you take it for the observation it is...you sound afraid of her. I'm sure you are afraid of your actions driving her off....but your fear can be counterproductive as well....causing you not to do things that "could" show your love for her.
Reach out and touch her if you feel like doing that, especially if she's walking around undressed or half-dressed...if you sit back and wait for her to come to you, so you don't drive her off....she may NEVER come to you. Why? Because she may want you to come to her.
I don't know that I'm afraid of my wife so much as I'm afraid of hurting her or upsetting her without intending to. I've considered trying to express these feelings to her and talk them out with her, which may discharge some of the tension. Is this a wise course of action?
Last night we tried sleeping in the same bed for the first time since I had the surgery. She wound up getting up and moving to the couch, where she didn't sleep well. Why? Not because I was snoring this time, but because--how can I put this delicately?--I had a gas problem. As if my life needed to be any more like an episode of South Park! So I'm going to be doing some high-speed research to see if there's anything I can do about that...maybe something I could take to alleviate that problem, as with the snoring.
Also, Five Love Languages is on order.
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
When I say you are afraid of her...I don't mean necessarily that I think you're quaking in your boots (er...brace) when it comes to her...when I say you are afraid of her, I mean afraid of hurting her, bruising her feelings or self-esteem etc, and what she will do because of that.
This is something that you're going to have to work past. The fact is some of the things that need to be said between the two of you will probably hurt feelings, may cause some anger, someone may be completely embarrassed etc. But these things must be worked through to work out your issues.
I speak from experience on this. I tip-toed around my H for well over a year, trying not to hurt his feelings, trying not to sound demanding, trying not to look foolish. All it did for me/us is waste time, cause confusion/anger/resentment and just in general cause me to shoot myself in the foot because it was a HUGE waste of time.
I finally realized by tip-toeing around my H thinking I was sparing his feelings...."I" was avoiding the issues, "I" was enabling him to not face the problems, "I" was just as much (if not more) at fault for the situation I found us in as he was....because I recognized the problem, but still didn't make him face it with me. I didn't touch him for quite some time, other than an affectionate hug/kiss...because "I" didn't want him to feel pressured. Well gee...that didn't do me much good, he took that as me pushing him away and being who he is...he backed off more.
"I" didn't bring up things I wanted to talk about because he was going to counseling and "I" didn't want to pressure him further. Which only led to me not being able to get the things out of my system that I needed to...."BANG!" shot my little toe right off!!! I found I had shot myself squarely in the foot by using his counseling as an excuse for "ME" not to communicate with him.....like somehow magically his C would channel into my brain and tell him all the things I was thinking....BZZZZ Not gonna happen! LOL.
This is somewhat the same avoidance dance I see you doing....only you are using her dealing with her "bi-sexuality" as a reason not to push....not to show her the affection you feel, as a reason to (for lack of a better way of putting this) ask her permission to do the things you want to do. How healthy is that? It's not.
I urge you again to do what I did with my H. Go to your W and talk frankly w/her. Yes, I know how much courage this takes, believe me I do...been there, done that. But you need to tell her how much you are holding in/back...granted, you have a bit of a physical impairement right now, but that doesn't mean you don't need/deserve physical affection...and she knows damned well there are many ways she could be taking care of you in that manner.
You need to tell her how many times you've wanted to reach out and hold her, kiss her etc...but haven't because when you try to you are pushed away w/excuses....as if you giving her a nice passionate kiss, or a squeeze on the butt or anything else...is going to make that headache worse. I mean, it's not as if you are after her 24-7 right? If you were that'd be an altogether different issue
It's possible that she doesn't realize how often she shoots you down, intentionally or unintentionally. My H really, truly didn't have any idea until I pointed it out to him...and then he was able to begin to understand why I was hurting as I was.
As to your nocturnal problem ... my H has the same problem, although he also snores to beat the band at times. Try Gas-X or Beano, they truly can help.
So in answer to this question, if you haven't already gathered it from my response...."I've considered trying to express these feelings to her and talk them out with her, which may discharge some of the tension. Is this a wise course of action?"
YES!!! This needs to be done, this is what I've been urging you to do
, but she declined.
So I'm going to be doing some high-speed research to see if there's anything I can do about that...maybe something I could take to alleviate that problem, as with the snoring.