Confused and Lost

[arjnex]

Hi, Greeneyedlass. Thanks for the response; I was afraid you'd given me up as hopeless.

I'm afraid I didn't think of asking "why not?" when she responded "no," I'd kind of pre-scripted the "I accept your decision" response. What I should do next time I ask her and get a "no" response, I think, is say, "I accept your decision. May I ask, why not?" I do think your possible explanation of "causing her mind too much turmoil to sleep" is at least a partial explanation, as she's often cited "my mind is just racing" as a reason why she can't sleep.

(It took me some time to come up with the "I accept your decision" wording. It tries to convey the message that, while I may be disappointed or upset by her response, I will nevertheless abide by her wishes. In response to a direct question of "Are you disappointed/upset?" from her, I would respond, "Yes, I am, but I have accepted your decision in this matter for the moment." And, at all times, I am using as calm a voice as I can get, low volume, low pitch.)

We did have a second discussion, which I outlined in the message prior to the one you replied to. A third discussion should probably wait until she's had 2-3 days to work on finding a psych, finding vitamin supplements, etc. (action items we raised for her in the second discussion), and today would be the first day she's had available to work on that, due to the holiday weekend.

If you know how much it's taken me to get to this point, and I think you do, then you must also know that, if I were to push too hard and she were to respond in an angry matter--accusing me of "obsessing" on the subject or, worse, of trying to coerce or force her--it could shatter all the progress I have made in being able to deal with this issue in a single instant. If that happened, it could easily be two more years before I found the nerve to bring up the subject again. That's why I'm taking the pianissimo approach.

- "A"

[Greeneyedlass]

arjnex,

Ok...here's a bit of truth for you k? You will most likely no matter what approach you take with her hear from her at some point that you are "obsessing" about this....so brace yourself for it now, be prepared for it...in order to help avoid a potential setback. Her saying something like this to you, is not only to be expected....it's often part of the process.

I am hopeful your W won't say this to you, but do not be crushed if she does....I believe every single one of us on here at some point has heard those words So, if you already know that could potentially set you back work on toughening up your skin now....know that part of the process includes her possibly finding fault in YOU (not that you aren't at fault in your own ways). But the HD partner often hears how if they'd stop obsessing about it the LD partner might relax enough to do it....that's almost verbatim what I heard from my H. I've also heard....well I was in the mood but then you brought it up and that killed it for me (so it's your fault we aren't having sex now).

You're W may not do these things, but it is VERY common...and know this taking the "pianissimo" approach will not avoid it

Just be prepared....if she takes this approach do not crumble (at least not in front of her).

Hang in there! We won't give up on you.

GEL

[arjnex]

Greeneyedlass, I will try and remember. What would be a good response to charges of "obsessing"?

My wife wants to work on her sleep disorder first. She does have a point, because if she's able to sleep properly, it would help her energy level, which she'll need if we are to actually engage in any sexual activity. Besides, good sleep will help her heal faster from the foot surgery, and will be of general benefit all around. I used our health insurance company's Web site to look up seven psychiatrists with a specialty in sleep disorders, all relatively close by, and gave her the contact info. Tomorrow she will be calling them to find one with which she can schedule an appointment. Meanwhile, I picked up some advice on supplements for her as well. I'm doing what I can to help her here.

Meanwhile, I got props from her for saying that I wouldn't be averse to taking dancing lessons with her, were it not for the money as well as our current orthopedic conditions. She commented, "Dancing is one aspect of making love." Filing that one for future reference...

- "A"

[honeypot]

A,
I've asked you this before but I can't remember what you said, but what is stopping you two from doing something..anything..sexual in the meantime?

Why do you have to, as a couple, jump through hoops and make your lives perfect before even attempting anything?

There will always be something that stands in the way of a perfect sex life. I think the idea should not be to strive for the ultimate, but to strive for the pretty good.

There is no reason that you can't stroke her stomach, or she can't rub your back, or you can't send your sexy emails. The other stuff is stalling.

In fact, what do you think she would say about starting off small and slowly working your way back to full fledged sex? Maybe you could take turns stroking each other, in whatever fashion you feel like, and see how that goes.

Honestly I think dragging out the start just makes the whole thing more awkward. And the more awkward it gets, the more excuses she will come up with to prolong it.

I would continue to honor her suggestions, as you are doing, but at the same time insist on some sexual activity that illustrates that you are moving in the agreed direction.

Hang in there and, btw, I hope you are starting to feel better from the surgery.

HP

[Greeneyedlass]

arjnex,

Well to be honest when it comes to "obsessing"...I replied to my H one time "I'm sure it looks like I'm obsessing about sex and maybe I am, don't you find you think about something quite frequently when there's something you want or need but don't get? Once you get it...you stop thinking ab out it." I've explained to my H that "sex" is really not the top priority in our R for me, although it may seem that way...sex for me is wonderful, it's gratifying, it's many things....but having it frequently (meaning several times a week) for me...isn't all that important. The absence of sex however is VERY important. With that I explained if we were ML on a fairly regular basis...even if that basis was once a week or once every two weeks....I'd be fine because that would at a minimum fill my need (sure I could go for more...but that would fill my need)...then he would see I really don't obsess about sex at all. However, ML 4x a year...is an absence of sex in my POV....and there fore sure, I look like I obsess about it.

Make sense?

GEL

[arjnex]

Honeypot...I already recounted how I asked my wife if I could touch her for a moment and she said, "No." I don't think I've yet figured out the right "combination" to start sexual activity--any sexual activity, what sort of mood she has to be in, what time of day, etc. Maybe I lack the words to tell her the sentiment you're expressing.

Now, before she went to bed last night, she did kiss me goodnight with a very yummy open-mouthed kiss, something she rarely gives me. That tends to reinforce my belief that there is something there to work with. Naturally, I did give positive feedback on that kiss, i.e., "Oh, honey!"

Greeneyedlass, I may adopt that tactic if I ever get accused of "obsessing." Excuse me in advance for borrowing your copyright.

She's focused on two things right now: her sleep disorder and her upcoming foot surgery. It's going to be tough to get her to keep any focus whatsoever on sex.

Now, let me run another thing by you. There's a story I want to share with her, that I'll share with you and see what you think. It's by a blogger I stumbled across once who writes fiction on the side, and it's titled "The Gift Room." It's about a couple in an SSM that finds help from an unlikely source. This story was, when I first read it, almost painful for me to read, though it's very well-written; I could feel some of the lines striking home. (I wish there were a "Helen" that could help us out, but, sadly, she's just fiction.) I think the story was one of the things that "planted the seed" that caused me to come to this forum, and to broach the subject with my wife. Read it and judge for yourself: should I pass this along to my wife, who may not have seen it?

(Oh, and, Honeypot, thanks for the nice thought at the end. I'm in no pain and haven't been for some time. The brace is sometimes uncomfortable but not unbearably so. In another couple of days, I can try loosening the hinge and bending my knee for the first time in six weeks, though I'll have to lock it again if I want to stand or walk. Soon, more physical therapy will be in the offing, to regain range of motion and muscle power.)

- "A"

[honeypot]

What about saying to her:

Honey I've been thinking and I'm no longer going to "ask" permission to touch you. You are my wife. I love you and I love touching you. I promise I will be mindful and respectful of your moods and my timing but if I have the urge to touch you or kiss you, I'm gonna go for it. What do you think of that plan?

There is something really odd in the dynamics you described and I think taking back a little of your power would be a good place to start. Right now, it seems that your wife holds all the cards and neither of you really like the setup but aren't sure how to change it.

Glad to hear that you are no longer in pain. Hope the rest of the recovery goes smoothly.

[Greeneyedlass]

arjnex,

While the story is nice, and I understand your point behind it...I'm not sure it would get your point across. I have a feeling that while trying to avoid any embarrassment, uneasiness or discomfort in communicating exactly what it is you want/need from your W that you are going to get lost in euphamisms.

Don't let a story tell her what you feel....YOU need to tell her. I'm not saying to not show her this story....but don't show it to her in hopes that it will communicate what you want it to

GEL

[arjnex]

First, Greeneyedlass, thanks. I will refrain from making that particular mistake.

Now, to Honeypot: Your statement:

Honey I've been thinking and I'm no longer going to "ask" permission to touch you. You are my wife. I love you and I love touching you. I promise I will be mindful and respectful of your moods and my timing but if I have the urge to touch you or kiss you, I'm gonna go for it. What do you think of that plan?

That nearly scared me off. What I'm afraid would happen under that scenario is this: My wife would get it into her head that she would be liable to get pawed at every time she came near me. (Not that I'd actually be doing that, mind!) Result: she wouldn't come near me. And I would lose what little physical attention (simple hugs & kisses) I presently enjoy. Remember, too, I'm currently dependent on her assistance; I can't bathe myself without her help, and she also helps with adjusting my brace as needed. And she has to drive me to work still, which puts us in close proximity for the entire commute. I'd be putting all that at risk if I went to this program of "unrestricted touches."

Maybe what I really need is a way to tell her something like this:

"Sweetheart, if I wait until all your issues are perfectly settled before we move forward with rebuilding our sexual relationship, I'll be waiting forever, as 'perfection' is something that's impossible to attain. I have tried and am continuing to try to be mindful of your needs, but I have needs as well, and, from my chair, those needs are long overdue in being anywhere even close to met. I'm not expecting you to go full-on today, or tomorrow, or even next week or next month. What I do expect is that you put some effort into respecting my needs as I am putting effort into respecting yours...and, if you can't do that, then we have a serious problem."

Now, obviously, I can't say that verbatim; it's too angry and would run the risk of alienating her further. Is there a way I could say this better?

- "A"

[Greeneyedlass]

arjnex,

I'm going to say this the only way I really can....you must get over your fear of your W. Remember, just because you tell her what you want/need, doesn't mean you have to demand it and doesn't mean you are demanding it. You are simply telling her how you feel, what you want, and what needs of yours are left unfulfilled (that she has the power to fill). I don't see anything wrong with you telling her verbatim what you wrote in your previous posting...it doesn't sound angry at all to me....but it is to the point and it needs to be. I would tell her exactly what you wrote.

Reaching out to her and touching her in nice gentle somewhat sexual ways, in ways you want to touch her...is yet again, not demanding, not needy....and there is a blatant difference between pawing someone and touching/caressing them. I believe you think she will view any touching from you as pawing, am I correct on that? And you are afraid that if you don't ask her permission to touch her...she'll cut you off completely. I HIGHLY doubt that will happen. But YOU have to get over your fear of driving her away by asking for what you need/want....or by simply touching her. You can communicate volumes to her in a kiss that words will never express. But getting the courage up to do it is not an easy thing to do (not gonna deny that)...but the only way to get over/past that, like I've said before is to do it.

I know you depend on her quite a bit right now too, due to your condition....but she's not going to abandon you to fend for yourself....do you really think that would happen? Or do you fear that would happen? There is a difference. It's the unknown that we fear the most, and our worst fears more often than not never come to pass....but we let them prevent us from doing what we need to (geesh I should take my own advice with my Dad!).

I know it takes a lot to screw up the courage necessary to talk to her and have the conversation that you two really need to have...believe me, it took me some time to get to where I needed to be with my H too.

One of the things that did really help was when I told him that I was afraid of xyz happening or that I could envision xyz happening if I told him this... or if I did this... I truly could envision my H getting mad enough at me that he'd leave and never come back....when I told him of my fears of communicating with him, he looked at me with wide eyes and said "Oh No! I'd Never Do That! I'd Never Leave" So at that point we made an agreement that no matter what it is, we can say what's on our mind or in our hearts without fear that the other is juding us...or that they will walk out the door. We agreed that sure, we may get mad, we may even fight, but we would get past it.

Hang in there,
GEL