A question for ya. Since arjnex W is currently trying to figure out her own sexuality....do you think his being sexual towards her would be construed as pressure or not?
I've kind of waffled on that one, that's why I'm asking. This is one where I can see both sides of the fence....wait, let me rephrase that....issue.
I'm inclined to think that the fastest way to work thru an R problem, including a sex problem, is to tackle it and start working through it. Talking about it, or taking a few weeks in which to ruminate on it generally do nothing in terms of actually fixing it, kwim? It seems like that just buys time..time which is usually spent pondering all the reasons why you just CAN'T do what your partner has requested.
I would tend to agree with you on the time issue. And I'm thinking some sexual contact with her certainly wouldn't hurt...probably would be a good thing. He just needs to be careful (IMO) that it's not too much too fast...know what I mean? My line of thought on that is...too much could be pressure, and when trying to figure out an issue like she is it might kind of have the same affect as if she were in an "A" (and I'm not saying she is)...driving her to the other team so-to-speak.
I'm really not sure on this myself...it's just a take on it.
To begin with: My left leg is in a brace, and I can't bend it, at least until after about a week from today, when I'll be allowed to release the hinges on the brace and bend the knee while sitting etc., but I'll have to lock it up again if I want to walk anywhere. A round of physical therapy is still ahead before I can get rid of the brace entirely. Meanwhile, as soon as I'm able to get myself to work without my wife's help, she's going to schedule her own surgery to have her right foot fixed, which will mean anywhere from 6 to 12 weeks in a brace of her own (resembling a very large boot), and, given her medical history and the rate at which she heals, it's probably going to be closer to 12 weeks than 6. She wants to do it as soon as possible, as it's presently painful, especially for things like walking and driving.
She will tell me how she's feeling, if I ask her. I don't usually get an answer better than "So-so" these days, though. But if she's tired, or achy, or she has a stomachache, or a headache, she'll tell me. (Occasionally it's "I have a really bad migraine and I need you to get me to the emergency room NOW!")
Greeneyedlass, you suggest "do some sexual touches...see what happens." Can you give me examples of what would be appropriate "sexual touches" under these circumstances? I'm sorry if that sounds like a stupid question, but I really don't know these things and I don't want to do something that'll make matters worse.
When I said "next week," I meant "next Monday," since Monday was when the "icebreaker" event occurred, and the first evening I started her skin-care regimen. I suppose I could push that up to as early as Friday or Saturday, since I have had several comments from her already on how much better my face looks, my hands look, etc., since starting. As I've said, smokescreen or not, the skin thing is probably the best bargaining chip I have. I can tell her, "I've been following your recommendations exactly, and you've seen me do it. Your own comments tell me it's working. And I'm not going to stop now; we've already agreed on that point. So...what about you?" Or words to that effect. The key message is, "I've shown good faith, and now it's time for you to do the same," though not as harshly as I phrased it just now.
Greeneyedlass, honeypot, I know you want me to push harder. But part of me feels like I've pushed her too hard already.
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
I know you "feel" you've pushed her too hard already....but here's something I've noticed, and I think Honeypot will probably back me up on this. For people who are conflict avoiders (I'm one of em) when they feel they've pushed too hard they stop pushing....and that is usually just about that if they'd push just a little more they would get some results. It's not that you have to do a huge shove or anything like that....but by pushing just a bit harder in this instance you could be doing something like sexual touches to really communicate to her that you want her....and that you're thinking of her sexually even while dabilitated. And you may be out of commission for many things right now, but BJ's and HJ's are simply not out of the question. You could each take care of each other in other ways.
By that I mean...hugging her and letting you hands stray to her breasts, or even moving your hand under her shirt. If she's standing next to you and you're in a chair where you could easily drape your arm around her waist to give her a quick little hug...maybe put you arm through her legs so that you're kind of hugging her thigh but your arm is touching her crotch....it can even be as simple as when my H and I sit on the couch he almost absentmindedly lightly straces my leg, arm or neck with his fingers when we're sitting together. It's something I really like...and it gets the sparks going in me.
You know how someone can be touching you, stroking your arm or whatever, and the moment it turns sexual you can tell? That's what I would do, in your situation. Touch her, stroke her, perhaps not touching her squeezy bits, but touching her in a sexy way, nonetheless. Maybe a "I think you're beautiful" or whatever strikes you. Let her know that YOU are thinking of her sexually and whatever she may be thinking is her biz.
I think the general idea is to act on your own sexual impulses instead of putting a lid on it cause she doesn't want you to. That doesn't mean throwin yourself at her..it means reaching out to her and touching her and talking to her in a sexual way. Lightly but definitely sexy.
But........like I said, I am a dyed in the wool HD gal and I don't think I've ever felt pressured re: sex in my life. So take what I say with a block o salt.
OK, well, getting close enough to her is not going to be easy. For one thing, my mobility is limited; I can take a few halting steps as long as I have something nearby to grab onto, chair, countertop, cubicle wall, something like that. To go any distance, though, I need crutches, and with those, she can hear me coming from anywhere. (I spend most of my time in the recliner, with my feet up.) For another, she's always rushing around doing things, whether it be the incessant loads of laundry, meal preparation, cleaning the catboxes, or what have you. When she's not doing those, she's usually lying on the bed resting, lying on the couch or floor in the living room, or in the computer room and online.
If she's on the couch, she usually wants to be lying on the couch, to rest, so I don't usually get to sit next to her. If I am, she'll often pick up one of the cats, if one is nearby, and cuddle it. Incidentally, if I've been giving her a big hug or something, and she notices that one of the cats was watching, she'll sometimes say something like, "no, no, kitty, Daddy's not attacking Mommy," or words to that effect. Perhaps she thinks the cats are jealous.
Honeypot, you say, "You know how someone can be touching you, stroking your arm or whatever, and the moment it turns sexual you can tell?" Well, actually, I can't really tell. It hasn't happened to me often enough or recently enough, among other factors.
I guess I shall have to keep my eyes open and take my chances as they're made available. I'm just not sure how she'll react if she sees I've suddenly got a case of "Russian [rushin'] fingers" and "Roman [roamin'] hands." Perhaps I'll have to answer her by singing the Robert Palmer song: "Doctor, doctor, gimme the news,/I got a bad case of lovin' you..."
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
This afternoon, I was able to use the skin care regimen as an "in" to restarting the conversation. Having my wife see me rubbing "Miracle Hand Repair" lotion into my hands helped. After I asked, "So, what progress on your end?", we got into a conversation that meandered into and out of the sex realm, but hit a number of highlights.
She's actually noticed the lack of intimacy for awhile, and was waiting for me to notice as well (!). She does feel badly about it.
With regard to the sexual-orientation issue, she's considering joining an online self-help group. We've also known for awhile that she needs to find a psychiatrist or psychologist to help her with her sleep disorder, since her regular doctor won't prescribe sleep medication for her; I suggested that that might also help her figure the sexual orientation issue out as well, she agreed, and I suggested that she put that search into high gear.
She also thinks that vitamin supplements, especially those designed for women, might help her lack of desire; she's been doing some surfing of her own on the subject. She'll look for something she can take regularly, though it might be tough, what with all the meds she already takes.
I was able to express my feelings to her a couple of times, using hooks from her own words. I was careful to emphasize, "I am not nagging you, I am not criticizing you, I am expressing my feelings." She seemed to be OK with that.
She says she doesn't mind talking about the sex issue, but she doesn't want to "obsess" about it.
She also thinks that she should start getting out and making some new friends here, which she hasn't done since we moved here, around 5 years ago (a month after the wedding). She says that when she's been socially active is when she's felt most sexually active, too.
For my part, she said I have a tendency to run on and on when I speak, and that I also have a loud voice, which I knew about. I think I know what she means, and will work on stemming the verbal flood in those situations.
Oh, and the daily E-mails are starting to get on her nerves. I will discontinue those.
So, several salient points brought up, and maybe a way to move forward.
Now, I've also tried the "touch" strategy, and results on that have, so far, been mostly neutral. Light stroking of her upper arms produced either no reaction or a "Don't do that! I'm ticklish!" response. Same sort of responses to stroking her hair. When she bent over my chair to hug me, I was able to run one hand up and down from her back over her buttock to her thigh; no real reaction.
Now, at one point today, I happened to be lying on the couch, in a bit of a funk; she sat down next to me and leaned over to give me a hug. One of her shirt buttons had popped open, exposing the upper curve of one breast, and I was positioned so that it was within easy reach of my lips. I kissed her there, twice, while trying to gently stroke her back with one hand. She didn't say anything, but she didn't pull away, either. When we released each other, she stayed seated next to me, allowing me to rub her back for a moment, which she enjoyed. She commented afterwards, after spotting the button on her shirt, "You popped my button." I didn't try to read anything into that.
Summary: I think we took another step, or at least it feels like it to me. Greeneyedlass, honeypot, anyone, am I going the right direction? What's my next move?
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
A couple of days ago, my wife came by my recliner, where I was sitting, sat down on the arm, and slid into my arms. As I held her, she said, "I'm sorry I've been such a bad wife." I tried to reassure her as I held her, stroking her back. I made sure not to squeeze her too tightly, much as I wanted to, as that usually causes her to pull away. (In some respects, I'm stronger than I look.)
Last night, I finally worked up the gumption to ask her, "May I touch you for a moment?" She said, "No," to which I responded, "I accept your decision. May I ask you again sometime?" She answered "Yes," to that, and clarified her earlier answer, "Not just before I go to sleep," which this was. I repeated that I accepted her decision, and she left for bed.
So, I'm thinking that (a) she does want to resolve this problem at some level, and (b) she hasn't entirely slammed the door on me.
Now, I know you might criticize me for asking if I could touch her rather than just doing it. However, I'd been trying to get up the nerve to do so for two days at that point, and only did what I did as a compromise to try and make some forward progress. But it also might help her feel like she's more in control of things.
Small signs of forward progress, but I've certainly gone farther than I thought I would have two weeks ago.
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
Progress can be slow, and baby steps are necessary.
I believe I understand why you asked if you could touch her....but the exchange just sounds a bit odd to me; I know you're treading in unfamiliar territory and it's scary and uncomfortable for you...so I'm certainly not criticizing, we all do what we can as we can in this process.
May I ask why, when you asked if you could touch her and she said no, did you not ask her gently why she didn't want you to touch her? From what I've read she did somewhat volunteer that she doesn't like to be touched before she goes to sleep. The only thing I might have suggested you try to do at that time was to ask her quietly...why?
Does she feel it would cause her mind too much turmoil to sleep because she would find her self thinking rather than sleeping? Or could there be another reason?
One thing I would like to say is that you mentioned you wanted her to feel like she's more in control of things....she's in control of things, and has been in control of things...at least as far as intimacy between the two of you goes. So sometimes, by taking the too timid approach (which I do know takes nerve to get past, been there done that.) you shoot yourself in the foot. I made a big mistake in the past of being too timid myself with my H. I thought, I'd back off and allow him to come to me...that if I removed all the pressure from him and made feel like he had control over what was happening that things would eventually come around....they didn't. He simply stayed where he was comfortable and never ever made any attempt. He assumed I was ok with the situation....so just be wary of being too timid, it can work against you too.
So, when are you planning your next discussion w/your W?
