LNL - I don't know about the laws where you live, but in the uS, failure to pay child support is NOT considered a valid legal reason to withhold visitation (which not giving him the passport couldbe construed as). If that is the case where you are, a judge could frown upon you having used this tactic and hold it against you in other ways.
I say, give him the passport, go to the attorney, get your money from H.
I have never stopped visitation or made it difficult, although H seems to think that my not taking being ordered around like a servant is "trying to punish him". I wouldn't be stopping D going to stay with him for his month, but I would stop him leaving the country with her (if I didn't hand over the passport).
Anyhow, I got an email from H this morning.
He tells me that he is bringing D down this evening as he has a heavy workload on. So he admits that entertaining a child on holiday while working is not always easy - he doesn't do it, but expect me to?
Says that she sprained her wrist while playing ball with him and is in some pain. Asks what if it had been an emergency, and she had broken her wrist? What if then I had not taken his phone call? That I am being childish by not taking his call, and only trying to punish him.
Well, firstly, he did not try and call me yesterday and I pointed out to him in an email that I do have a voicemail facility. There is this assumption that if there is an emergency while he has D, that he doesn't have to deal with it, he just delivers her back to me.
And he labours under the illusion that I want to punish him. I couldn't care less about him, and would love it if he never bothered me again! He doesn't realise how indifferent I am to him. I have seen the light, and seen right through him, finally. He still, and will for ever more, think it is all about him.
Here's a little aside -
How many narcissists does it take to change a light bulb? Answer
1) One - he holds it against the socket, and the world revolves around him.
2) One - because he will tell you when to buy the light bulb at a hardware store he picked out. He will tell you what wattage to get. He will then berate you for not getting the right brand. Then he will direct you to the lamp, and explain what direction to turn the burned out bulb and he will instruct you on how to open the package with the new bulb so you do not jostle it and damage the new one.
Then he will share with you his observation on how YOU are always burning out light bulbs. You must have dropped the lamp in the first place seeing as how you never pay attention to anything around you. That stated, he will then instruct you on which direction to screw the new bulb in. Carefully, now, as we both know you tend to treat objects roughly.
He will direct you to the garbage pail to throw away the old bulb and the wrapping for the new one "Careful now you know how you drop things" and make sure you understand that you are a slob also and need to make sure you always put the garbage out properly. It only took 1 N to do that big job with so many obstacles in the way.
The second answer was my mother down to a T!
I have asked him to get D to ring me as soon as she wakes up.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
LNL - Sounds to me like H is uncomfortable with your new level of detachment and trying to poke around and get a response out of you. Not sure what the best approach would be, but maybe going as completely dark on him as you have is being counterproductive? I know it's good for your mental health, but maybe it is just provoking him to annoy you more? If your goal is to get to a point where he doesn't annoy and bother you, maybe this approach is backfiring by triggering too much retaliation from him? Is there a way to remain detached while still taking his calls?
Quote: LNL - Sounds to me like H is uncomfortable with your new level of detachment and trying to poke around and get a response out of you. Not sure what the best approach would be, but maybe going as completely dark on him as you have is being counterproductive?
I think you may be right there. It was what I was thinking.
But this narcissism thing is interesting when it talks about how they will project. So he tells me I am punishing him. But in fact it is the other way around - now that I have given up on being his pal and cushioning him from his decision, he is punishing me. I know it's good for your mental health, but maybe it is just provoking him to annoy you more? If your goal is to get to a point where he doesn't annoy and bother you, maybe this approach is backfiring by triggering too much retaliation from him? Is there a way to remain detached while still taking his calls?
See below
Just thinking.
I didn't hear from H in the morning. Meanwhile I had a good think, and then I emailed him to say -
I was fine with him taking D on the 31st (didn't mention abroad or the passport, to leave some leeway)
Mentioned that I am booked to fly to my country of origin and would arrive back on the 2nd of September, two days after he officially "finishes" having D as per his four weeks. I have delayed telling him this. But seeing as he is already saying he will pay me nothing for D that month, he can't really complain. But I had a standby option for my friend to have D for two or three days if he objected.
He replied, says the dates are OK. Then says, how come I never told him my plans earlier?
Tell me, why do I have to tell him my plans when HE has D for a month? And if he was really a genial laid back chappie, I would have had no problem telling him! The thing is I had very little choice of flights at the late stage due to H not telling me his dates on time and also I ended up paying MUCH more for the flight I was able to get. Next year is "my" year, I will fix my plans and just tell him, he will hve to fit around me. I could even argue that he has cost me money and should pay up. And the year after next, he will have to tell me his plans by the deadline or I just go ahead and make my plans once again.
H quips that maybe I should work as a lawyer, as I am very keen to stick to all our SA provisions that suit me, but not the other way around.
For someone who has been to one of the most prestigious univerisites in the world, he sure is sloppy. It does NOT say in our agreement that all D's expenses have to eventually be split down the middle, but he assumes it does, because that would be FAIR according to him. No use explaining anything to him about this, the lawyers will have to thrash it out.
I assumed the possibility that H had something exciting planned for this weekend for D, so THAT's why he asked her not to bring her homework up with her, but no, it was just a humdrum hanging around at his place the whole time kind of weekend. He sure is a cool customer.
Anyway, I asked in my email whether he was sure it was a sprain or not, as D has broken her wrist and elbow and had three operations and the first time her broken wrist was missed. So then I got back the reply that it was only a little sprain. So he was pumping up the drama...
In my opinion, all three times she has hurt her arm, has been directly or indirectly due to H's actions. He threw her a ball today. It is a very light ball, he must have thrown it hard to have hurt her like that. I can just imagine it. When we have played with hard balls before (like cricket balls, which are lethal) and I have said he throws too hard for me, but he laughs and carries on with the same force. *I* have had to "deal with it".
Ellie, you might want to hop on over to the NPD site and look at the kind of thing we are dealing with here. I hope you will see that I am not just being difficult. It really is a tricky situation. The term that comes up often is that they give you a mind f***. You stop knowing which way is up by the time they have finshed with you. Thank goodness I have friends and family that ground me and tell me who and what I really am without my H there to confuse me.
I spoke to D on the phone later on and she said she was fine, after I stupidly mentioned maybe going to the hosptial to have it checked out, and she apparently cried a couple of times in fear. But now she is down and it seems to be minor. If she still has any problems by the morning, I will take her in for a check up.
This week I will find myself a lawyer to talk to and get moving on the money front.
I feel a bit calmer this evening.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
LNL - Not suggesting you werebeing difficult, only trying to think what will get you closer to your goal. Seems to me, while you are trying to get the money and legal issues worked out with the lawyers, then putting on a front of being "nice" to H while the lawyers haggle might get you more in the long run.
I think that's the approach I am aiming for. My sister would take a much harder line, and I have tried to steer a path that I think would get a reasonable result. Sis thinks my brain has turned to mush over H, but I know he is a tricky customer and can still make my life difficult should he choose to. Let's see.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Quote: Liv, if you worry that he will take your D to another country and not return her, you have every right to make a stand about the passport.
Michele - Liv just took her out of the country herself - and H has never made any noises that would make one think he would even want D all too himself (heck, he hardly takes her when he can) so i don't think that ismuch of a worry.
I don't think fighting over the passport is useful right now.
Thanks for your responses folks. It is 5 a.m. here and I have been awake the last couple of hours, woke up due to strong winds banging the windows, then thinking about stuff...
Firstly, I just want to post a couple of links to another (NPD) forum, where a poster from this forum has taken up residence, and where I also post a bit. You may recognise her.
There's also a poster there who calls herself "Love Eats Brains" which I think is most apt!
I think there are many of us here trying to save our marriages, who frankly shouldn't be - we should be getting down on our knees and thanking the good Lord for our second chance. I know it is never evident when the bomb is first dropped (in NPD parlance, when you are Devalued and Discarded, or D&Ded for short) but over time, and with research, sharing, study and reflection, you do get to that point. I have. I have also had more than two years to mourn the loss of my "family" and marriage. Of course I still have my family, it's just a different shape.
I wish I had more time to post about this in much more detail, but I am up to here in stress, things to do and worry.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
This evening I had an interesting conversation with D. It started out innocently enough, but I gathered the following facts -
H broke his glasses at the weekend. He has a very strong (expensive) prescription and is almost useless without them. He put his hand out to pick them up from somewhere and there was a large insect, a cricket, on them and he got a start and dropped them and they broke.
It seems his computer also doesn't funtion well and he is going to get a new one.
Thirdly, his coffee grinder broke. D says he hit a kitchen chair hard with a broom handle when that happened. He also slammed his fist on the table when he broke his glasses. I can just imagine it. I have seen it often enough.
Now, I do understand that stuff like this can make anyone extrememly angry and frustrated.
But it seems he also told D the following. He feels very unlucky. Just when he was getting more money (from paying me less???????) this has to go and happen.
He has had two pairs of (expensive) glasses broken in the past, once he had handed them over to D, when she was a toddler, to play with. Not what I would call wise.
He has also hit his computer (laptop) to make it work!
D also said that this weekend her Dad and her "cleaned up" his place. It is good that she gets to learn about cleaning etc, but it seems a little strange (oooops, not really!!!) that he doesn't have it clean for her visit.
Anyway, we went out this evening, and towards the end, D said her wrist was aching a bit. I looked concerned, and she said it wasn't much and make light of it as she is scared of the hosptital. But I have decided to take her in for a check up nevertheless, tomorrow.
I then asked her again how it happened. She told me she and H were playing ball, where she was piggy in the middle between him and a wall. He was throwing quite hard, and she hurt her hand once. He said he wouldn't throw so hard, but it happened again. So they stoped playing. Then later, she was mucking around and she fell over and her hand hurt and H started laughing. At this point in the narration, D adds "Dad wasn't laughing at me because I was hurt, but because I fell down in a funny way..." It sounds to me that she is already starting to 'make excuses' for H's behaviour, just like I have done all these years. I really didn't get it. Here is something my sister wrote me in an email just today, when I told her I hadn't told H anything about the passport yet.
You have made endless excuses over the years for H's behaviour, which has become increasingly disgraceful
I have always thought my sister's disapproving views about H were a little over the top, as she is very vehement about many things, but with time she is being proved right.
Anyway, at that point, someone else found some of that pain relieving spray and applied it.
Now, I heard nothing of all this on the Saturday when it happened, and I was home all day to field calls or voicemails, yet H sees fit to email me with a rant about "What if it had been an emergency?" and how childish I am???
One thing I find odd is that D says her hand feels bruised on the back of her wrist, but how does that happen when fielding a ball from the front? The ball is VERY light - about the size of a football, but only weighing 250 gr. I don't think I would be able to throw it hard enough to really hurt anyone.
I suppose she could have just got the sprain from an awkward movement. But I do wonder...
Anyhow, the stuff about H losing his temper over all the things breaking and having lots of extra expenses, makes me think that he is increasingly unstable.
I think it would be in my best interests to get some kind of one off deal up front quite soon, so that would free me from dependence on him. I will then make my own way. What if he just starts to earn a whole lot less and can't/won't pay a bean?
I might suggest signing over the whole house to me in exchange for no child maintenance. At least we will have a roof over our heads for sure. The thought of not handing over a penny of his income to us might be attractive. It might buck him up and get him off my back (where have I heard that one before? )
Got to go back to bed and get a little more sleep before my alarm goes off!
Thoughts?
By the way, I am not afraid that H will take D away and not return, just that he might hang on to the passport and play tinpot dictator over it. Maybe he hasn't thought of it yet though, so I don't want to put that idea into his head. Also thought, I have photocopies of it and all the paperwork regarding its renewal. I don't think he would have a leg to stand on for keeping it, as I have never taken D away without letting him know etc. It would become a police matter, or I could report it stolen and get a new one...
But one thing I have read over and over again about NPD - never underestimate what Ns will stoop to.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
And the year after next, he will have to tell me his plans by the deadline or I just go ahead and make my plans once again.
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