So, he came back from the pharmacy and I almost feel sorry for him. You see, when I get something stuck in my mind, I'm like a terrier with a bone. I can't let it go...
Anyway, here's what I asked him:
Are you willing to give the book a shot? As in read it and follow through with what's in there?
Can we start our discussion today or do you want to wait until after the book?
He said that he needed to think for a day as I have bombarded him with a bunch of stuff and he will get back to me tomorrow.
And then he started talking about mundane, everyday stuff that I have absolutely no friggen interest in. Christ. I wanted to shake him.
Why are you asking his permission to have a discussion about your R? I suspect you already knew before you asked about having the discussion that he would choose to put it off...even for a day. If your R is important to you (and I know it is) then lead by example....tell him something like... "honey I've got to get some things off my chest about our relationship, lets sit down and talk. The book I've asked you to read will help you to understand better where I'm coming from once you've read it. I really want to work on our marriage and making it better and I need your help to do this, but first I need to tell you how I'm feeling."
What do you think?
GEL
PS: I'd like to suggest you also pick up "The Five Love Languages" and read it....you two are bound to have different love languages and that can make communication difficult until you learn what they are.
Yea, but he's left the house again to take the kids to the library. While it's something that they do every Tuesday, I can feel the anger boiling up inside of me. I can't talk with the kids up. He'll use them as a buffer. I will spill it tonight.
ME, that was a good start. I agree with everyone about the anger having to go. Its easier said than done, isn't it? The truth is - the anger takes a long time to fizzle out, but in the beginning, the challenge is to keep it under wraps as you talk to him. You can tell him that you are angry, but don't let your anger set the tone of the conversation.
The best way to come up with the 'script' is to read, read, read. This is part of the reason I suggested reading Passionate Marriage, as well as some archives of the board here. It will help you find the words to express your feelings.
Remember, though, that there is no way to plan out a 'script' because you have no way of knowing what he is going to say. My tips for the big conversations that you are going to have:
Stay calm. Take deep breaths. Do NOT react to what he says. LISTEN. Even if you feel that he is just coming up with excuses, LISTEN and don't attack. Process what he says and respond to it, even if you want to react. Don't let the conversation get off on tangents, because he will try to do that. Also - don't try to cover everything in one conversation. Don't sugarcoat things, keep it simple and straight.
Talk to him honestly about where you are at. Sure, vulnerability is hard, but that is the way to more intimacy, ultimately. If you want to tell him what the consequences of his inaction will be, go ahead. But be d*mn sure that you have thought about it first, and are willing to go through with it. I presented it to my H as a choice he would have to make, following which I would make my own choices. This takes the whole 'power' thing out of the picture, because we all have choices.
You also need to do a lot of thinking and growing, to let go of the anger, forgive, give him a chance, work on things that he addresses etc.
Quote: And then he started talking about mundane, everyday stuff that I have absolutely no friggen interest in. Christ. I wanted to shake him.
Yep, we all know that feeling. Unfortunately, you'll probably have to get used to it for a while. I too bought the book, and my wife promised to read it. That was over a year ago, and it is still unread (by her). We have made some marginal progress, but it ain't going to happen overnight no matter how much you wish it would. Anyone on this board will attest to that.
You're off to a good start though, keep it up.... keep after him like a terrier...
Fair enough, this is definitely not something that needs to be discussed in front of the kids. I don't know if you two drink or not...but I've often found my H much more receptive to convo's like this when we're sharing a bottle of wine and relaxing a bit. Perhaps you two could go for a walk nearby? Something where you're not just sitting across the table from each other where it looks like a showdown.
Quote: but I've often found my H much more receptive to convo's like this when we're sharing a bottle of wine and relaxing a bit. Perhaps you two could go for a walk nearby? Something where you're not just sitting across the table from each other where it looks like a showdown.
is an excellent one. The evenings are getting longer this time of year and the kids can go to bed early enough for you and your H to enjoy a sunset together.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Quote: Oh, I haven't even voiced the porn yet, so he doesn't know. This was just a reaction to the email that I sent him (posted in the beginning of the thread). There's no reason for him to feel guilty.
I meant that he feels guilty because HE knows he's using porn, not because he knows you know. Of course, I may be wrong.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
OK, I might be a bit odd, but porn in and of itself doesn't bother me much. It's kind of like if he needed to wear my underwear or something to get going. Whatever floats your boat, I'm pretty much game as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
But if he is substituting porn for me, then I have a problem. I do not know if this is the case, but I suppose that I will eventually find out.
OK, so I couldn't trust myself to not bring anger into the conversation, so I wrote a letter to him and then read it to him.
Quote:
First off, I need to tell you that I love you, but more importantly, that I like you. Even after four years of living together, I truly like who you are and on the whole, I enjoy living with you. I don’t know if this makes sense to you, but that’s very important to me.
At one point, even though I still loved xx ex xx (probably out of a sense of obligation), I couldn’t stand who he was. I didn’t want to be near him, couldn’t share the same bed with him, and pretty much detested everything he stood for.
So, it’s really important to me that I not only love you, but that I like you and for the most part want to be around you. I would miss you as a friend if something were to happen to us.
So how am I feeling right now and where do I stand?
Let’s talk about feelings first. I’m angry. I’m hurt. I’m confused. I feel unwanted, unloved and very lonely. I feel isolated, resentful, vindictive and very insecure. I’m scared and in some ways, I feel defensive and untrusting.
I’m angry because somehow you have let me down.
You were so perfect, H. You were attentive and affectionate without being clingy and needy. You were able to give me space and not take offense if I needed to step back. Yet, you were always there when I just needed to be with someone who I loved. You didn’t expect endless chatter, could sit comfortably in silence and just seemed to enjoy my company. You seemed to listen and value my opinions when I did speak. And you shared yourself with me.
I’m not saying that all these things are gone, but those are the things that really attracted me to you.
I don’t know if you remember, but before we got married, I asked you to tell me that you loved me. I needed to hear it. I also told you that it wasn’t necessary for me to hear it often as long as I felt it.
And how did I feel it? I felt it every time you touched me. Every time you reached out to hold my hand. I felt it when you’d smile at me. The secret little pats and gropes in public. And although you don’t want to hear it, for the first two years of our relationship, I felt it almost every time we made love.
I hurt because not only do you not want me anymore, but the affection that I valued is gone also. I don’t think you understand how devastating it is for me that you don't want me. In my mind, if you don’t want me, you don’t love me. They’re one and the same. In the last couple of days, I’ve learned that that may not be so for you, so I'm trying to readjust my thinking, but affection is not sex.
I also resent the hell out of you. Because for all that you’re giving, you don’t really give of yourself. There’s always a wall there, a distance, and looking back, it’s always been there. But over the last couple of years, it has become more and more formidable. To me, you have become almost unapproachable.
So, where do I stand?
Something has got to change. We’re room mates and I don’t want to live with a room mate, I want a husband. This doesn’t necessarily mean sex. If you don’t want me anymore, then I can hardly expect sex from you.
But if you love me, I would appreciate the affection to return. The little things we shared that made my relationship with you different, than say, your relationship with xx a female friend of his xx. Is this making sense?
I will also tell you that I will not be content living a celibate life. Sex is something that I need. Nor do I think that it's fair that you ask me to be celibate just because you don't want me anymore but still might love me. I don't know how we will work that out, or what it would do to our relationship, but no matter how much I love you and how much I like living with you, I will not suppress that part of me any longer.
So that is where I am right now.
Afterward, I told him that I didn't want a response, not even an apology, that I was emotionally exhausted and going to bed.
He followed me to bed. We did our usual bedtime routine, chatting as if the letter had not existed. Chit chatted in bed like we typically do, and then he reached for me.
I burst into tears. I couldn't help it. I cried all over him. I think it hit him some them how much damage had been done because he was swallowing hard.
But I think what struck him more was that fact that for the first time in four years, I could not reach orgasm during foreplay. I finally had to tell him to stop trying.
Afterward, as he tucked me in beside him, he said, "It's a trust thing, isn't it?"
I just nodded. I didn't tell him that I think that it's more of a trust in myself versus him thing, because I want him to feel the weight of this for a bit. Maybe that's a bit cruel and vindictive, but I'm human.
Anyway, I know that this is only the beginning. I told him that I expected a letter from him by the 19th and sex didn't get him off the hook. He didn't have to read it to me, but he did have to open up the lines of communication.
