This post sounds almost identicle to my LDH. Can you tell us some of what his history is like in other R's? The reason I ask is my H has had some horrible experiences w/women in his past. They emasculated him, berated him...used sex as a weapon, and made him feel like he was the wierd/strange one because he wanted it...they eventually made him truly believe women didn't want sex. We are now battling back from that damage.
ME, You sound very angry. Don't get me wrong, I've been there and that is NOT a criticism. But I think in order for the discussion to be productive you will have to check the anger at the door and really approach him as a vulnerable human being that wants to rebuild your M with him. If you are on the attack, even subtly, he will sense it and either clam up or get mad.
Passionate Marriage helped me tremendously with dialogue. I too needed a script in order to get started. There was so much to SAY that I didn't know where to start and I sure as heck couldn't trust myself to say it nicely. Many many times I didn't say it nicely and impeded my own progress. I emasculated him with my words, ME, and I regret so deeply today. Years later, those words are still in his head. How do I know this? Because he will bring them up, from time to time, when we are calmly discussing things and I realize that they stung him far worse than he let on. I wish I could take it back and un-utter them. Quite honestly, I meant them at the time. But there are a ton of brutally honest things that I think about people but would never say them out loud. I should have given him this same consideration.
You've made a huge mistake in sweeping everything under the rug and avoiding conflict but you can rectify it now. That is one of the realizations that hit me the hardest..in my sexual starvation, I was unaware that I was as angry at myself (for selling myself out and not insisting on a sex life from the get go) as I was at him.
I'm sure he gets uncomfortable in discussing sex but that will lessen over time. I am continually amazed at the types of convos I'm able to have with H now and the words! The WORDS! We used to stumble all over ourselves, not sure whether to say "making love" or "having sex" or "doing it", etc. The only way to change this dynamic is to stop participating in it. Initiate a conversation when you are feeling warm and fuzzy towards him and spill your guts to him, as you have done to us. Keep it light, if possible, and inquire about his preferred frequency and divulge what yours is. He sounds inexperienced and awkward in regards to sex, but I don't think that means there is a death knell tolling for your sex life, do you?
Keep the faith, stay calm, deep breaths, you can do this. You can bring it up and be loving-but-firm at the same time. You can stand your ground and reconnect with him and make your M better than it's ever been.
One suggestion might be to write down the major points you want to go over so that you can sorta practice what you'd like to say.
Oh, and try to space it out. I made (and continue to make, doh!) the mistake of overwhelming and overloading H with info and questions. By the time I bring it up, I have so many dang questions that I can't stop myself from talking. I need to read his cues and when he's had enough, adjourn the convo and tell him we'll take it up another day. And then follow thru with that.
Good luck; it's all up from here if that's any consolation.
I was hoping that our first conversation would not include any ultimatums. If it’s necessary, I will make them, but I feel like that backs him into a corner. That’s not a happy place to be and it breeds resentment. It’s like treating him like my 12 year old who doesn’t get the grade in school that I know that she can. That’s demeaning, isn’t it?
Can I live without sex? Yes. If he had some physical problem that made him unable to perform, I would not leave him. Nor, do I want a performance based on desperation. I want him to want me for me, not because of some consequence.
So, if there needs to be a goal and a consequence, I would say communication. Once a week, we sit down. Each of us brings a relationship issue, or a question, and we discuss it.
I don’t know what a suitable consequence would be for failure to talk. We’re both bound to fail the first time. Hell, I don’t even know what I would bring to the table. I don’t have any problems that are not sexually related and that topic is going to make him so uncomfortable I might not get another chance.
Do I go for the heart of the matter right away? Do I ask him if he wants me? If he looks at and masturbates to porn rather than makes love to me?
God, this scares the hell out of me. What if he says that he doesn’t want me anymore? To think it is one thing, to actually hear it would devastate me.
I know how daunting your conversation seems to you...I still do have a tough time broaching difficult topics with my LDH...but we're so much better at it now than we were 12 months ago.
You don't have to have a boundary/consequence immediately...it's just something you do need to think about...it helps to motivate your H and helps to also drive home how much you are hurting.
Really...when it comes to your convo with your LDH. Stick with "I" sentences....it helps to avoid blaming him for everything (which is also counterproductive). Seriously, tell him how the lack of attention and physical closeness is making you feel...don't hold back on this. I suggest you sit down prior to your convo and make yourself a list of your feelings....how this has truly made you feel; for me it was: unattractive, lonely, sad, angry, resentful, crushed, unimportant etc. Really do try to put your feelings into words for him....I have a hunch he really doesn't have a clue how this is affecting you, my H was COMPLETELY unaware even though I brought it up time and time again. What really opened his eyes up was my boundary/consequences.
Last year we were out for our anniversary...he was trying to be fun n'stuff (non-romantic)....I'd had enough of the farce. So I very plainly said, in a calm tone, that if we didn't get counseling to work on our issues that I couldn't guarantee we'd have another anniversary. That was the eye-opener for him.
So...whatever you say to him do it calmly. No yelling, no placing blame (afterall, you're just as much to blame as he is by not saying something sooner.) Just a calm "Honey we need to talk" conversation. Then let him know you've been trying to talk to him, or at least get up the courage to talk to him about something you both find very difficult to talk about and then jump on in....but remember keep things in the "I" tense..."I feel"...."when we ML I" etc.
Does that help at all? I wish there were a script I could provide...but there isn't.
Angry? I sound angry?!? Maybe because I am, but more than angry, I’m hurt and I’m scared, and that puts me on the defense, thus the attitude. I am so out of my comfort zone here. I am not used to not knowing what to do and how to do it.
It is not my intention to hurt or belittle him. That is counterproductive. I thought about taking this on like I’m dealing with an employee at work who is not meeting performance goals, but that’s not right because then I’m in the superior position and we need equality.
But if I go into this on equal footing, then I am opening myself up to a world of hurt. And this man can hurt me more than anyone else alive. Just the thought of giving him that opportunity makes my palms sweat and my heart race. I know that this is what I need to do.
We haven’t really discussed past relationships in depth. Comments here and there. He’s got pictures of some and has asked me if I minded them. I don’t, nor do I care that he is in contact with some of his ex-girlfriends.
I told him that we both have a past, and there are some people in my past that I still have contact with because I still care about them.
But we’ve never gotten into depth about the “whys” of broken relationships. I know that his girlfriend before me wanted marriage and he didn’t want to spend his life with her because she was too controlling. Another girlfriend was black and he’s white and his family did not approve.
First step, you MUST put aside the anger and resentment. You won't make any progress until you can do that. GEL had it right, talk to him about how his actions make you feel. Concentrate on sharing your feelings. WWME sets this up as follows: First you write each other a love letter answering a question and describing your feelings about your answer or feelings about the subject in LOVING detail. Then, you exchange letters and read them to yourself twice, once for content, once for capturing the feeling. Then you spend 10 minutes or so discussing with the goal of trying to get your partner to feel what you are feeling. No analysis or problem solving...just try to convey the feelings that you have. Getting to know what each other is feeling is probably the hardest part of the problem resolution. Once your feelings are shared successfully, a loving spouse will usually try to modify his/her behavior at least to some degree to help avoid generating bad feelings in you. They don't want to hurt you, and it is as painful for them as soon as they see how much you are hurting. Again, I encourage you to sign up for and attend a marriage encounter weekend. You've got nothing but a weekend's worth of time to lose and everything to gain.
The fact of the matter is it doesn't matter exactly how you bring up the discussion. It is going to be tough. I think the first big serious discussion I had with my H after I joined this BB, I used the phrase "I want us to have a more passionate marriage.". I don't think I said anything much more aggressive than that and still my H had a complete throw-his-clothes in a suitcase fit. Unfortunately, this is not an atypical reaction and you need to prepare yourself to stand strong if something like this occurs. It really might be a good idea for you to read "Passionate Marriage" first. It really helped me to learn to "hold on to myself" emotionally when dealing with these kind of convos.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
So do I initiate a conversation before we read the book or after? I told him in my email that I wanted him to read the book, not that I expected him to bare his soul to me.
It should be here next week. I should have it done in a day or two and then he can take time to read it. It'll take him about a week. Maybe I should order another copy? But I really want to mark up the book with notes so that he can read my notes also. Then he's not so blindsided when I finally whack him upside the head.
What do you think? Is this legit or am I'm being a coward here?
