Fair enough answer I imagine I probably am a 7...haven't taken the test yet though. As I do tend to pick myself up and pull myself out of the blues....not that I don't still feel the pain or have the emotions like csw, I just do like you said and work on distracting myself.
If I (and only speaking for myself here k?) were to constantly read sad poetry or listen to sand songs etc...it'd make me want to slit my wrists.
Thanks for answering that for me...it helped to clarify why he would choose to do that. Everyone deals with pain in their own unique way...csw do whatever you need to.
Lillie... I have realized that 4's do distract themselves...I know I have gotten so caught up in my feelings, and have stayed ( and felt justified staying) in that miserable, authentic place, that it becomes its own distraction...a self absorbed, self-pity one ( the 7's have all the fun). I wonder if the solution-oriented approach is particularly helpful for 4's, to help us move out of our feelings and into practical action.
BTW...I am so pathetically not an artist that I wonder if I really am a 4...the weird thing is that my daughter is talented in drawing, music, etc. I am more of a math/science nerdo. I can " feel" those things, but to do them...forget it!
GEL, I have been posting more sad poems here because I am very sad, and I seem to post more when I am most sad. I can assure you that the stuff I am reading isn't all sad (nor are all of the posts), and that I am not siting around all day listening to sad songs. I have tried listening to the radio lately, but every other song is about losing love (it's like a window in your heart). BTW, my relationship with poetry has always been on the sad end of the spectrum, and I stopped reading and writing it when W and I got together, at the same time I discoverd my love for metalworking. Sculpting for me is a joyous thing, and is something I am having trouble doing right now. I am working toward that goal, and have been doing some sketches.
"...it'd make me want to slit my wrists." Thanks for that cheerful assessment...
Cally, I will definitely be avoiding any R talks, since thay have proven to be counter productive. We haven't spoken at all in several days. She never came home last night, but I wasn't home either. I suspect that she will come home on Sunday for laundry and more clothes. She already told me she would be sleeping at IL's again this week for work. I am done playing her game.
OM gets his new place in two weeks. I guess I will see even less of W at that point. After he moves in, I hope things will "normalize" for them, and they can settle into the routines of their R. I know that OM's true colors will shine soon therafter.
Speaking of shining, I am making my talents known to the new boss. I am now going to install the new roof sign for the retail store. (It pays to have a do it all electrician father to watch & learn from...)
Here is a slightly happier poem:
Wood thrush in the big, round maple Robin in the snag Flicker, hungry for a mate Cherry petals, falling like rain Everything bathed in magic hour light a run for your camera light that reminds you You're alive.
Please don't think I was passing any judgement on you I certainly wasn't...I really was just trying to understand where you were coming from when you post sad stuff since that's not something I would do We all have different things that we enjoy....and if poetry that is a bit sad is something you relate to, then there's a reason for that Some of my all-time favorite songs are on the sad side...although do I tend to like things more upbeat...songs like "Brandy (You're a Fine Girl)" & "Wildfire" aren't exactly optimistic now are they? LOL
I was just simply trying to pass on things to you that help to keep me going when I'm down and having a hard time making it day-to-day. These are things I forced myself to do after my fiancee' passed Christmas of 2002 (which I found out about after the funeral).
I'm glad to hear though that you are doing things you enjoy too, and if you enjoy sad poetry and that works for you...that too is a good thing
Quote: If I (and only speaking for myself here k?) were to constantly read sad poetry or listen to sand songs etc...it'd make me want to slit my wrists.
Thanks for answering that for me...it helped to clarify why he would choose to do that.
Sometimes it DOES make me want to slit my wrists.
There was a bit of judgmental tone in your reply, GEL-- 'fess up. The more extraverted types say to the 4: "Why do you just sit there moping and making yourself feel bad? Stop dwelling on how bad things are!"
And the 4 replies: "How can I upbeat when I'm dying inside? Distracting myself may temporarily take away the bad feeling, but it won't change the reality."
(BTW, GEL, I don't think you're a 7... I think you're very likely a 1. The TENDENCY to be sure you're right is a very 1 characteristic. )
When something is triggering the 4's bad feeling, it feels dishonest to the 4 to distract himself from it. To ask the 4 to engage in distracting activities is to ask him to be dishonest with himself. I know that to the 7 (I live with a 7), this dwelling on the negative looks like a character flaw. But on the up-side, you will not often find a 4 who can pretend or act like things are okay when they are not. (This is not true of, for example, the 3 or the 7.)
The Enneagram types are (I believe) partly inborn temperament (as some have pointed out, some babies are just born thick-skinned and some are just born thin-skinned), and then based on that inborn temperament, their parents treat them in certain ways that contribute to the development of the Ennea-type. So a cheerful, outwardly oriented 7-type parent will treat a quiet, introspective, extremely sensitive baby (who feels like a foreigner to him/her) differently from a baby who is also outwardly oriented. And that's not to say which it will be: the parent might be extra nurturing and involved with the very sensitive child OR might withdraw from that child because the parent feels ill at ease with that temperament. Needless to say, there are a zillion variables that you parents know a lot better than I do.
The point is-- and here I want to comment on GEL's use of the word "choose" in the passage I quoted above. One does certainly choose behavior. You'll get no argument from me on that. But when you step back to right BEFORE the behavior emerges and say "What do I feel like doing? What are my options?" if the 4 is sad, the 4 will feel like playing sad songs, for good or for ill. This is not a choice. The 4 may or may not choose to act on that preference. The 4 can learn that playing sad songs all the time annoys the cr@p out of others, so he doesn't do it. But he will still WANT to do it. That part is not a choice. The 4 can train himself to do other things when the desire to play sad songs arises, and indeed, may take to WRITING sad songs, composing symphonies, or painting huge canvases. In some lexicons, the 4 is called The Artist.
I'm saying that the temperament and the inclinations that arise from the temperament are NOT a choice. The behavior is.
When the 4 is moving in a healthy direction, s/he moves toward 1, which is a more action-oriented, practical type. The 1 is action-oriented with a purpose, which makes this the direction the 4 needs to go, and not the 7, who tends to plan and do to avoid pain.
My Riso-Hudson book on the Enneagram (the BEST Enneagram book: The Wisdom of the Enneagram) gives these tips for helping 4's BEHAVE more like 1's regardless of how the 4 is FEELING: (Csw, some of these might help you; I know that every single one of them applies to me.)
*Remember the adage that "feelings aren't facts." Your feelings may be powerful and may, at times, offer important insights into your own character. However, they do not necessarily provide accurate information about the motivations or feelings of others.
*Emotional volatility and moodiness are not the same as real sensitivity. (This is what IHJ was getting at. -L.) The deeper qualities of the heart are more subtle and are not reactions to the actions of others or to our environment. Our emotional reactions often prevent us from being affected by our experiences on a deeper level. Ironically, they indicate a fear or unwillingness to explore the deeper, truer feelings that our situation may be triggering in us. Undefended Love gives us the tools to identify these deeper feeling that are triggered by events and by our partners. -L.
*Recognize the aspects of your Fantasy Self that are not in alignment with the reality of your life. Having creative goals is wonderful. Procrastinating because you feel that your "genius" is insufficiently recognized, or because you do not have the particular tools you need... is self-defeating.
*Seek out truthful friends who will mirror you honestly and accurately. Maybe on this BB? Fours, like most people, benefit from reality checks, especially when it comes to their feelings about themselves and their romantic interests.
*Beware of expecting friends and intimates to be a dumping ground for your emotional upheavals. People who care about you want to be there in any way they can, but you cannot demand that they parent you or that they take on the brunt of your childhood issues.
*Set up postivie constructive routines for yourself. Fours tend to wait for inspiration to strike, but inspiration has a better chance of getting through to you if you daily schedules, and living space are arranged in ways that support your creativity, your physical and emotional health, and above all your active engagement with the world.
For what it's worth, I'm a Type 7 but I always used to listen to the blues after a bad break-up. I think I played "I Never Loved a Man" by Aretha and "Am I Blue" by Billie Holiday about 20 million times in a row after one guy I was in luuuuuv with dumped me to get back together with his high school girlfriend. Though the fact that I was on a version of the pill that was too high in estrogen for me might have had something to do with this. I also wrote some really bad poetry during this time period.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
No...I truly wasn't being judgemental....I REALLY did want to see his side of it, which is why I asked the question....I probably simply didn't pose it the the right way. I thought about asking it several other times but didn't...merely because I didn't want to come across the way I seem to have come across. Unfortunatley that's one of the down-sides of the internet and BB's...no tonal inflection
I like to see different perspectives, I like to try to understand why others do things that they do when what they do is different from what I would do in the same situation....it's not a matter of right or wrong for me, it's a matter of understanding someones' perspective. Hopefully that made sense, it did in my head when I thought it.
And honestly I don't know if I'm a 1,4, or 7...I haven't taken the tests to find out LOL...but FWIW...I'm not an extravert, I'm an introvert...been tested on that one LOL. I have to work very hard at being more outgoing...so in some ways I may appear more extroverted, especially on a BB llike this. I'm not really sure if I need to be right...or if I just need to understand (I don't view those two things as the same, but some might). For me there is quite a bit of room for shades of grey and different perspectives.
One of these days I will take the time to take an ennegram test and see where I fall....you could very well be correct.
Thanks for letting me know how I came across....the last thing I wanted to do was offend csw or make him feel that I was being judgemental.
GEL, No offense taken. I understand the basis of your question, and also know that the majority of my posts have been quite sad. I find myself in my darkest hours with a need to post how I feel. Like LP said, I can't dump on my real life friends, so you folks recieve those bundles of joy.
Generally speaking, after I post, I feel better. The sad poetry isn't something I actively seek. I just happen to post the ones that seem most relevant to my sitch. The ones that make me feel better get posted from time to time as well. (e.e. #95, etc) I do find that if I am down and listen to mellow music, my mood gets worse (Pink Floyd, Animals for instance)
Believe me, I am not actively seeking depression. I am not searching for sad songs and poems to post. I am simply posting my thoughts and things that have recently moved me in some way. I honestly don't know why I feel compelled to post. Possibly because I don't really have anyone in my life to share these things with at the moment. For the most part, my friends aren't into poetry, or psychology, or many of the things I have been thinking about lately. When we hang out, I have a good time, but sometimes it feels like there is a mass stuff getting in my way of fully enjoying myself. You folks get that mass of stuff when it is on tap. (thanks ) I am actively learning to distract myself, in ways that nourish my spirit.
LP, I appreciate the points you made in your long post. They are quite applicable to my life, especially the self-defeating behavior and the need for reality checks. I received a few of those checks from friends in the last few days. (right into the boards)
JJ, I never said I was a poet Although my feet tend to show it, they're longfellows.
I am off to persue some distractions. THe trouble with distractions that I am drawn to is that they remind me of W. Every time a pass a creek that looks good for kayaking, guess who pops into my head. When I plant the garden (my next chore today) Guess who...
W came home yesterday, before dark. I didn't come home until late, so she had some quality "alone time". Today I have tried to avoid her as much as possible. I don't want to get involved with any R talks. I gave her a hug last night, and she hugged back for a nice change. I touched her shoulder this morning, and she pulled away. I made lunch for the two of us, asparagus omlettes. She was polite and appreciatve, another nice change. A friend loaned me Dave Matthews Central Park DVD, and we have been running that. I have been listing gear on ebay while listening. It is good not to sit and watch the DVD with W, since many of the songs would make me emotional right now.
It is so hard to see her, so near and yet so far away. She will be home tonight and tomorrow night, and then will be gone again for several days. She said she called to let me know she wasn't coming home last Friday, but for some reason she called the house and not my cell, and she knew our landline was dysfunctional. Oh well, at least she thought about calling.
I gave myself a deadline of sorts, but sticking to it seems like a tall order. I can let her go, but for me it seems like all or nothing. I can't let her go a little bit, and retain hope for our M. I think I need to stay away from her as much as possible, because if I don't, It reopens the wounds, and prevents the healing that I desperately need.
I imagine I probably am a 7...haven't taken the test yet though. As I do tend to pick myself up and pull myself out of the blues....not that I don't still feel the pain or have the emotions like csw, I just do like you said and work on distracting myself.
But I do tend to be solution oriented.
We all have different things that we enjoy....and if poetry that is a bit sad is something you relate to, then there's a reason for that 
Some of my all-time favorite songs are on the sad side...although do I tend to like things more upbeat...songs like "Brandy (You're a Fine Girl)" & "Wildfire" aren't exactly optimistic now are they? LOL
