Quote: I know I am guilty of overanalyzing every interaction with XW, no matter how small. I would believe you do the same in your situation.
Yeah, you both are, so knock it off!
Seriously, guys, if you've been reading my thread, you've seen where I figured out that I do the same damn thing, and it's a defense mechanism! So stop it! Both of you, regardless of where you are in the road with your XW's, need to learn to just be present in the moment with them, enjoy it at face value, and stop trying to read so much into it!
I mean, in plan Martian language, SO told me the same thing -- that I analyzed everything into dust and took the fun out of everything! So cut it out!
I double...no...I triple-dog-dare ya to put that analyze monster down on the ground and not pick it back up again! I bet neither of you can do it for a week!
(Fed Ex'ing each of you a month's supply of chill pills!)
But you are right: Do NOT initiate R talks. Ever. Follow her in maybe. But don't start it. Imagine yourself talking with a new GF. Would you get anything but a terrified date if you started to ask "So do you think we should get married?" or "Do you think we're going somewhere?" even. Let the R develop naturally - a new R.
In terms of the physical intimacy, this is just a facet of the R. Wes, I'd use the knowledge of her comfortableness with you to try a new way of expressing your sexuality with her. Focus on pulling her toward you, with her initiating. Watch your posture, staying open toward her (no crossed arms/legs, eye contact, smiling, relaxed breathing). Keep close position if she moves toward you. Literally, reinforce her with your comfortable positivity as she moves toward you, and see what happens.
You already have proven with repetition what happens when you initiate and when you are more aggressive. Your friend's advice about time and patience is wise, and it fits with a pulling mentality.
Quote: Of course she is. The is no R pressure. You are D. She goes home to her place and you to your house. There is none of the daily dealings of an R; no discussions or battles over finances, in-laws, laundry, kids, travel, when will you be home, why can't you help me, school, schedules, etc.
Yeah true, just like when we first went out...saw each other on weekends and had none of those kinds of discussions about finances, housework, etc. Know what? We fell in love. Actually Dogma, when we first started out, I was like I imagine she is....just enjoying the time together without expectations. Not expecting I'd be married. Actually scared of being married to her and reluctant. But she waited for me like I will for her.
The question I raise with myself is, why would she want to spend more time with me or develop an intimate R if she divorced me?
Bruce, there is a common thread that runs through for you. It's that you assume that when she divorced you she was both rational and reasonable and carefully thought through everything. I thought it was well established that WAS run for unknown reasons, possibly due to alien abduction. She was holding on to past grievances, scared, confused, whatever, but that wasn't the woman you married. It wasn't the one you knew a year before the D or two years before. I've given up even trying to use that logic. You thought the D was a mistake....ever think that maybe your W has that feeling too but is too stubborn and afraid to ever say it? I just don't buy the argument "if she wanted me she wouldn't have divorced me." I do buy the argument that she felt it was the best thing for herself at the time.
Martha,
As always I appreciate the input. I'm not sure how much actual real time analyzing I do. I don't think "this is going well" while I'm with her. I'm just being me. I do write down what I feel is a positive on here after it's over, but maybe that is too much analyzing as well. Do I wonder if she is starting to come around or if she's thinking about the night before with me? Yep. Do I wonder if the call for no reason meant something? Not much anymore. I can't take the bet Martha. I don't know how not to analyze at least some. How does a person...monitor what works without determining if something worked? I do need to do less initiating.
Gabriel, thanks for the advice. We'll see. Got a reasonable book that addresses this?
You know....there are huge chunks of truth in everything said tonight and it is a great discussion. I did a lot of devil's advocate tonight, but I think the actual truth is somewhere in between. Only our spouses/SOs know the answer to what they were thinking during this period of time. If any one of us is successful then they are obligated to find out from their SO what they were thinking during the period of separation or D. Deal?
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Quote: It's that you assume that when she divorced you she was both rational and reasonable and carefully thought through everything. I thought it was well established that WAS run for unknown reasons, possibly due to alien abduction.
Disclaimer. The following statements are my own and will likely generate debate and disagreement.
I for one do NOT buy into the, "they do not know what they are doing or thinking" "alien behavior" theories. I believe the WAS is thinking clearly, probably for the first time in a long time. Their thoughts are rational and logical and decisions were a long time coming, without our knowledge or input. They wanted out of the R and M and ultimately wanted a divorce, no matter how much we perceived their hesitation.
I also do NOT prescribe to the, they have to divorce us to rediscover, rework, reestablish the realtionship theory.
IF they wanted to work on the M (and XW one time said her time after moving out was NOT about working on the M), they would have stayed and worked through easily (in many cases) solvable issues.
Your interactions with X are positive, as mine are; this beats the alternative. But in my mind, it really means nothing, because I believe they do not perceive what we do.
Truth be told, it is unlikely we will ever know what they X is or was thinking.
Yes indeed: David Deida's The Way of the Superior Man. It is the best I've seen to discuss male sexuality and presence within a hetero R. I'm truly not one to promote a non-traditional view, but he does a great job talking about gender polarities and gives specifics regarding how one might behave in situations. The book helped me to find a healthy position other than the testosterone-dripping neanderthal and the wimpy, pc-neutered 'sensitive' male.
Deal! In terms of feedback from the SO if success happens, I promise to ask her.
As always thanks for the input. Bruce in regards to this:
Quote: I for one do NOT buy into the, "they do not know what they are doing or thinking" "alien behavior" theories. I believe the WAS is thinking clearly, probably for the first time in a long time. Their thoughts are rational and logical and decisions were a long time coming, without our knowledge or input. They wanted out of the R and M and ultimately wanted a divorce, no matter how much we perceived their hesitation.
Yeah, ultimately they wanted out of the M after careful consideration. As I said...they made the best decision they could at that point in time probably after quite a while of careful consideration. But you have to admit that they must be good actresses to make you believe that there was love etc and then the next day...blammo...no more marriage. There is absolutely no point in rehashing the why's of the D. In the mind of the majority of spouses that initiate D it's the right thing to do. I've forgiven mine for the D...she thought it was right.
To me this is solely about forming a new R with my ex. As a person I find her to be attractive and someone I like being around. I don't really care that she wanted the divorce for whatever reasons or that she currently feels that there is no chance of reconciliation. It is possible for people to change their minds...I've experienced that myself. If despite my efforts she doesn't want a R with me then that's just the way it goes.
Gabe, thanks for the suggestion.
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
(Oops! I just realized I posted this on Wes' thread...apologies, Wes, but there's been a lot of overlap between your's and Bruce's threads the past couple of days!)
Bruce,
I've read this post of yours a couple of times, and something bothered me about it. I think I just put my finger on it:
Quote: Your interactions with X are positive, as mine are; this beats the alternative. But in my mind, it really means nothing, because I believe they do not perceive what we do.
It occurs to me that you just let your W/XW have all the power by making this statement.
In effect what you are saying is this: "Yes, I've made all of these great changes, but b/c she doesn't notice, then it's all been for nothing -- I only really made the changes for her."
Honey, if you've only made your changes for her, then they aren't really lasting changes. If you boil DR down to a few essentials, it's about changing ourselves, FOR ourselves, and ONLY for ourselves!
And, it's not unlikely that you will know what your WAS is thinking. It's IMPOSSIBLE for you to know what they are thinking, even when you are closely engaged in an R. You can never truly get inside someone else's skin. You can only listen with an objective ear and empathize.
Does any of this make sense? I think it ties into the observation I made earlier about the anger/negativity I've noticed on your thread from you and some of the other guys. You are all really saying, "Well sh*t! I made all of these changes, and she hasn't notices, so screw it! I'm done!"
Quote: "Yes, I've made all of these great changes, but b/c she doesn't notice, then it's all been for nothing -- I only really made the changes for her."
Never suggested this. I know and have said to others many, many times, this is an opportunity to make life changes, for YOURSELF. Your life has to be about what you want, not what others believe you should do.
I have No idea if she notices, NOR do I care. It is about me, now.
No, of course, I have no IDEA what she is thinking. My point, we have a perception of our interactions with people, spouses, teachers, parents, co-workers, etc and really have no idea how they perceive our interactions. We see or feel many things to be positive when the other person may see it differently. I think we see interactions as positive when I believe (and my belief only), the other people (X spouses) do not perceive the interactions as positive or negative, but simply as they are.
We are going to close this thread down in a hurry, but I'm enjoying the back and forth.
Here's my question...how many times have you ever had an extended interaction with someone where you were completely oblivious to everything...."it simply was." No thought of positive and negative. After talking with that girl did you think about the interaction...whether you enjoyed it or not? Did she? (and you know the answer is yes). What makes our WAWs/ex-Ws different than a normal person. You already said they aren't aliens.
If you started railing on your W I think she would leave with..."that was a negative". If you did her a huge favor I doubt she wouldn't at least consider that was nice of you. I'm sure our ex-spouses aren't analyzing things like we do, but they sure aren't oblivious to whether something was good or bad. I don't tend to hang around someone I don't like/can't stand/don't want to be around. DO you? They might not think..."that was a positive", but their behavior (or at least my ex) suggests that it was enjoyable enough to want to repeat. My ex-W volunteered that she enjoyed being with me. IOW...she felt positively about being around me.
But I'm sure we try to read something into everything they say and do and that is where we go astray when we are considering if something is a positive or not. It's in looking at the single event and not the big picture. ie, my wife probably didn't mean anything when she asked in an e-mail today.."Did you sleep?". Just being polite. Is that the kind of thing you were talking about Bruce?
In the end, it's not the years in your life that count. It's the life in your years. Abraham Lincoln
It is hard to fail, but it is worse never to have tried to succeed. Theodore Roosevelt
Quote: But I'm sure we try to read something into everything they say and do and that is where we go astray when we are considering if something is a positive or not. It's in looking at the single event and not the big picture. ie, my wife probably didn't mean anything when she asked in an e-mail today.."Did you sleep?". Just being polite. Is that the kind of thing you were talking about Bruce?
Yes. And no, I do not walk away from every single interaction with someone, evaluating it from a positive or negative perspective. I know I reserve this task for contacts with XW.
But I believe I tend to read WAY MORE into these situations than X does.
Now, you have a decided advantage in that your X is willing to spend time with you and intiates both activities and conversation with you.
Got a reasonable book that addresses this?
