Over the last few years, I have become convinced that most of the problems in my marriage are physiological, which then in turn caused non physiological issues.
If you have seen my postings, we really have a good relationship other than the quality of sex. Quantity isn’t really the issue, with my W ‘willing but not wanting’. For years I have had my thoughts that something wasn’t right medically. I finally convinced her to talk to her doctor about her lack (almost zero) of desire. Her OB/GYN gave her testosterone to try, it did have some positive effects but she didn’t like the side effects. Afterwards, her OB/GYN told her t ‘drink a glass of wine’ before going to bed, and that should take care of it. It took me 3 years to convince her to go see her regular doctor, he did a few test and told her to go see a psychologist. She is in pretty good health in general.
Now here is the thing, I’m sure some of it is in her head, let’s face it there is a mind and body connection when it comes to sex (well at least good sex) but the doctors dismissed the body portion quickly. If I came to the doctor and told him that I couldn’t get a hard on, I bet that the physical aspects wouldn’t be dismissed so quickly.
We did go to the psychologist (we went together, at the doctors suggestion), he didn’t find anything that jumped out at his as being wrong. No relationship problems, communication problems, none of the indicators that cause sexual issues. Any problems like frustration, animosity were caused by the sexual issues not the other way around. He suggested that if we want to try to work those out he could help but didn’t think that he could do much about the cause. He suggested that we look into sleep apnea or other physical issues. The sleep specialist didn’t think that was a problem at all, if fact he said, ‘sounds like your doctors are working there way through the not the problem check off sheet’.
I insisted that she go see an endocrinologist for thyroid. She did, her TSH was 4.3 (not traditionally considered out of whack) but the endocrinologist decided to treat the symptoms not the test readings! He has given her a prescription for thyroid hormones, let’s see how it works. For the first time in years I feel like we are trying to do something about the problem and not just working around it. Her attitude changed during the trips to the doctor from, ‘if that will make you happy I will go to the doctor’ to realizing that something isn’t right, this isn’t just the way I am and wanting to do something about it.
That alone has made these recent steps worthwhile for me. It is amazing to me how my attitude has changed just knowing that she does want to do something about the problem and we are trying something.
Orgasm She can and almost always reaches orgasm manually (almost never with intercourse alone). My point is that she can reach O, rules out some possible medical and psychological problems. I’m fine with the fact that it seldom happens with intercourse, I’m just happy she can O.
Arousal – Desire she seldom has desire, and when she does it is after she is WELL aroused, 20-30 minutes of foreplay minimum. It sakes a long time to get aroused, usually we need to add KY or some other lubrication. (this has gotten worse as she got older and had kid).
Other general issues that lead me to think thyroid are low energy, fatigue, usually feels cold, cold hands and feet. The psychologist said that these aren’t due to depression and recommended AGAINST wellbutrin even though it can have positive sexual side effects, ‘why treat sexual problems with a depression medication when she isn’t depressed’.
Psychological Issues (or non issues)
We do have a good relationship in all other aspects, really, Every time I say that some one jumps on me saying that there HAS to be other issues. We share duties around the house pretty well including taking care of the kid; I usually cook and do a good share of cleaning. We both take care of S5, I pick him up from preschool and spend 2-3 hours with him before she gets home from work (she works 4 days a week).
We live a pretty low stress life, and when we have ‘stressful’ things come up, both of us handle them well. N financial issues, we do pretty well in that aspect, we are in tune with each other in spending – savings habits, even to the point that we only have on checking account, and share all the credit cards. She pays all the bills from the account.
She never had a high libido, and it had decreased over time. Um, when we met (both were 21 when we met I had had much more shall we say experience than her.
Sounds like your W is both psychologically and physiologically healthy and that you two just have different SD's. Her libido is just lower than yours. The way her SD operates is just different from yours. She is engaging in sex with you and does get aroused after things get started. Both you and she are within normal parameters. The need for something more than intercourse to achieve O is not abnormal. The need for more external lubrication as she gets older (even if she's in her 30's) is not abnormal. The arousal after things get going is a normal variation in SD. It taking longer, as she gets older, is not abnormal. (Getting older DOES cause changes as much as we might like for it not to ) She isn't denying you sex. She is enjoying sex (?). She hasn't discounted or invalidated your need for sex (?). She's willing to look for medical issues, which may be nonexistent, to try to change her SD to be more like yours. HDsocal, could it be time to say "We're just different. Let's relax and enjoy the sex, however it happens...as long as it keeps happening."
It's even possible that trying to figure out why she's different from you and how she can change to be more like you could be something of a constriction on her already lower libido, in and of itself. Her SD is under a microscope being analyzed and critiqued.
Keep the sex happening in your M, but maybe loosen up on trying to change how her SD operates. That seems like courting frustration and dissatisfaction. If SHE wants to look for ways to change her SD, let her. Your part might be to work on getting okay within yourself with how her SD actually does work. It's just the way her body works. As long as there is sex!
I think Michelle tries to make this point in SSM as well when she describes the different but normal ways that SD's work. And how sex means different things to different people...all normal. The difficulty often seems in accepting these differences, finding loving ways to work things out while accepting the differences.
Hey, you may even have a better situation than mine in keeping the sex going! Both my SO and I are desire after arousal types. Which doesn't necessarily mean less desire for sex, just a whole different dynamic in how it all happens!
I’m not sure if I explained it as well in this post as in others. Her desire is near zero. She really doesn’t enjoy sex, she does enjoy like an O, but other than that there is no desire at all. When we do have sex, she is willing but there is no real interest or desire, this results in a sex life that isn’t very enjoyable for ether of us.
If I do try to get her aroused, I sometimes can but not very often. With lubrication, I can bring her to an O using my hand or orally. If there is any desire (not frequently) it only last around the time of her O. Is she denying me sex, technically no, is she enjoying sex, no. Has she discounted my need for sex, yes actually, by not wanting to (until recently) work on the quality of the sex to try to bring it to a level where it is ML, not masturbation is discounting my needs.
I don’t think her SD is ‘within normal parameters’. I think with normal parameters she should have some desire, resulting in arousal, should feel desire and/or arousal during sex and would have sexual thoughts some times. Her desire is so low that if I didn’t initiate and mention (repeatedly over the years) the problem, we probably would not have a sex life. Lets relax and enjoy the sex would be a good plan if it was just a matter of quantity and not quality.
She is willing to try to look into the problem but this is just recently (been married 15 years). I think hearing a number of different doctors all saying that they agree something isn’t right, has gotten her in the frame of mind that this is a problem that needs to be fixed, or at least continue trying to fix it. Her SD has gotten slowly lower over this time. I would expect that as we get older (both 40) or drives would both decrease, but in her case she started from such a low drive anyway. Other ‘symptoms’ do tend to point at a medical problem that if not directly related could be indirectly related to our problem.
Seriously, though, my gut feeling is that there is nothing wrong with her physically. My H is literally a model of optimum health, including high testosterone, and drive is definitely lower than mine. Furthermore, he doesn't think about sex very much. Hardly ever, in fact.
I have come to accept (begrudgingly and with a great deal of difficulty on some days) that this is just how he is MENTALLY wired. There is nothing 'wrong' with him; it is in his head. He is quite capable of getting aroused and enjoying himself and the equipment works just fine.
What seems to get him most excited is when there is something different about me. He settles into our 'routine' and is quite happy to do the same thing, day after day, including not thinking about sex.
Perhaps your wife just needs a jolt every now and then, to remind her how good sex is.
One other thing is that she needs to own the process. At a certain point, she will have to look at herself in the mirror and say, I want to be more sexual. Until that point, she might just be "going along" for the ride and we all know how horny that'll make a person, lol. This is, unfortunately, the stage that my husband is at. He will do anything on earth to make me happy but he has not yet taken ownership of the process and said to himself, I want to be different! When he does, I expect that things will feel differently, even if there is not a lot of actual difference in frequency. There will be a difference in HIM, of that I am sure.
As far as the not O'ing during intercourse, surely you've heard that this is the norm with women and not some freak thing with her..? I can't O during intercourse unless there is direct clitoral stimulation. There is nothing wrong with my hormones. In addition to that, there are times when my arousal takes a while to kick in. (usually not, to tell ya the truth, but sometimes) I would not think it weird whatsoever that her desire follows arousal...MWD writes about that in her book as a legitimate thing, so can you approach it from that point of view? "This is how my wife's body operates and we will have to go from there." As far as lubrication goes, again, sometimes I got it and sometimes I don't.
I really don't worry at all about the physical signs and whether luck is with me that night. I just do whatever needs to be done in order for it to be a pleasurable experience for him and I.
What I'm trying to say is that, physiologically speaking, your wife doesn't sound all that strange to me.
I think she may have some hangups in how she approaches sex...awkward..not wanting to admit that she likes it or needs it..would prefer that you bring all the heat for herself and you, etc.
But those are mental hangups and not physical. No amount of testosterone is going to turn her from a relatively shy and awkward lover to an aggressive red hot mama, don't you agree? That is a mental shift that will have to take place..
I agree with you that it doesn't necessarily have to be some huge marital problem that is causing her to not have any desire, but that doesn't automatically mean that it is physiological, kwim? It could be that she is just shy or uninterested (at the present moment) in becoming sexual. I have to say that the idea doesn't really appeal all that strongly to my husband...not because he thinks it's gross to be that way, but because he sorta thinks, Oh well I'm fine the way I am.
I walk a fine line between reassuring him, Yes you are fine the way you are, and Wouldn't you like to experience life as a person who considers themselves sexy?
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that for many women sex is between the ears. We don't have the huge chemical onslaughts that you fellas have, so whether or not we feel horny is going to originate from somewhere else. If she does not consider herself sexy, and never has, I would bet that this is the source of her 'no desire' and not that there is something physically wrong with her.
I say this not to rain on your parade, but to point out that in the likely event that her health checks out fine, you will need to have an alternate plan in mind as to how you will tackle this marital conundrum.
I think you, honey and I all feel similar because we have spouses that are willing to do whatever we want but don't necessarily own their sexuality. Actually, it sounds like your W took some ownership which is cool but in general we seem to be waiting with our fingers crossed that they finally "get it".
The frustration leads us to thinking that our spouses are "duds". My negative feelings came back to the surface last week in my "I'm full of crap" pity-party-post. Instead of confronting her with my bad feelings (though I did restate the things I want from her), I tried something new this time and while it may sound pathetically trite, but it changed the way I felt about her instantly. I simply ordered a bunch of sexy things for her off of the Victoria's Secret site. Think about it...I (being the typical software engineer) have been pushing her to "reprogram" herself all this time. But what about doing the opposite? Maybe encouraging her look sexy for me will help give her a little boost in "thinking" sexy...but even if it doesn't affect her, it affects me...it makes me have more hots for her. The fantasy of seeing her in these sexy things is silencing the little voice that tells me she's a big dud.
Maybe I need to be less like Schnarch and more like Snoop Dog fo shizzle (damn I'm so white).
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
She does sound like she is definitely in the lower end of interest in sex, perhaps in asexual range (there was a link on MSN yesterday about asexuality, might want to google it). Doesn't mean there is anything physio or psychologically wrong with her. But we can hope, right? Something with a nice, powerful, easy cure.
Quote: When we do have sex, she is willing but there is no real interest or desire, this results in a sex life that isn’t very enjoyable for ether of us.
Can you work on separating your enjoyment from her level of desire or interest? Do something like what AtlDave is doing? Or even simpler without her having to do anything different. Seems like you may have a downward spiralling cycle. She isn't interested. You experience no enjoyment because of her lack of interest. She in turn then experiences even less interest (if that's possible)...and so on and on. Maybe you could whistle or walk around with a silly grin for the day afterward...something that makes her smile too would be particularly good. Start getting some positive feelings paired up with the sex again. I don't think this will change her fundamental nature, but it might help make it all a little less unenjoyable for you . Smiling and laughing are contagious and generally make you feel better overall anyway. Can't hurt, right? Plus, this is something you're actually in control of. Her interest level, you aren't.
I also think that as long as your focus is on her interest, it's going to be you trying to change her. Recipe for frustration for you. Potential source of resentment and resistence from her.
Stay focused on what you can do regarding your own enjoyment given the circumstances as they are. Make that your project while she explores the other stuff under her own motivation. It should be enough of a challenge to keep you occupied, given how things are. Even if there is some physio problem, the cure doesn't mean she's going to turn into someone with more than a somewhat greater interest in sex than she has now. So I think you're still going to have to deal with the issue of how to enjoy the sex with willingness more than interest. (But there is always hope.)
) She isn't denying you sex. She is enjoying sex (?). She hasn't discounted or invalidated your need for sex (?). She's willing to look for medical issues, which may be nonexistent, to try to change her SD to be more like yours. HDsocal, could it be time to say "We're just different. Let's relax and enjoy the sex, however it happens...as long as it keeps happening." 