Wow, guys, thanks. There's a lot to absorb here. Thanks so much for all the time and energy, and the outrage - it makes me feel very supported.
I was planning to ask him to see the e-mails - at least the one from him. I am waiting, however, until I get back and he has no excuse - I want to be there so he can't say he'll do it later, or that he can't access his e-mail. I'm not going to demand, I'm just going to suggest it as a way to build trust (ugh, I typed that and I realized how hypocritical it sounds coming from a snooper).
When I talked to him I told him how upset I was, and that it was OK for him to write her whenever he wanted, because that was his choice. I said, however, that it doesn't have to be OK with me, and it isn't. I told him he is continually pushing me over my boundary on this, and I keep crawling back to the other side, and that I wasn't willing to live like that.
He said there were "many diverse threads," that it's not about him writing to her (I interjected, "of course it's not about your writing to her"), and that we needed to unravel them to get at the heart of what it is really about. He says he's not "thinking about her," he's thinking about me and the baby and how we're going to get along with our daughter on the way. He says writing her is not about me, and I said it certainly isn't, but making agreements and then breaking them is about me and my ability to trust him. Incidentally, I did tell him that my ultimate goal was NOT "to get along well enough to raise our daughter, but to be happy together and get married and have a family." I felt I needed to be explicit about that, because he keeps talking about being in T so we can "get along." He said "Yes, it would be great if things were perfect, but we aren't there yet. It would make me very happy if we could just get to the point where we can talk to each other and get along." I asked him if that was his ultimate goal. He finally said that being happy together and getting married and having a family was his ultimate goal (after I had to tell him again that I wasn't asking about his medium-term goals).
Ellie, as an aside, I believe that he is so desperate to talk to her because he wants to tell her what's going on. He says he feels strange not having told her, and that he has been wanting to contact her so he can tell her. I believe, as well, that he wants to dump all the gory details on her about not wanting the child, about beng trapped, about not being happy with me. I, of course, want to control what he says to her, to make sure he doesn't tell her our business, say I trapped him into it, etc., and so that's why I've been so reluctant to talk about it with him (knowing I can't control it and knowing deep down that I shouldn't want to). I think the T will help in this regard, or at least it is what I'm hoping.
I've considered not going to T tomorrow morning, and letting him go in alone to deal with this crap, but I think I will probably end up going, if only to tell the facts (the timeline always gets screwed up in his mind [and of course in his favor], and I have a perfect memory for things like that). I can just hear him telling the T that SM has only been an issue for the last year, or something ridiculous, like he never carried on a R with her while he was with me. He tries that on me plenty.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts, and the support. I'm mulling it all over - the thought of throwing him over is a daunting one, since I know I can't just run off with the baby away from him. I want to be fair, no matter how much of a prat he's being to me. I'd have to find some suitable and affordable housing in or around NYC, which is next to impossible for someone who will also have to pay family health insurance while not working steadily. The easy route would be to move into my parents' mountain house, but that would be too far away from Daddy. I just don't know what I would do, honestly. Complicating things is the fact that I do love him, and know he's trying really hard in other ways, and he is making a tremendous effort to heal our other problems (he just has this one BIG, UNACCEPTABLE hangup).
I'm curious to hear what he has to say about "what it means to him" to be in contact with SM. And H2H, you'll be interested to hear that on the phone last night in his attempt to highlight what he IS doing for us, he said just what you were saying all along, that he "made such a big deal about going to therapy" because I wasn't hearing him, that I wasn't able to hear him and listen to HIM. (Hmm, no mention about hearing me or listening to me.) You always said that the big push to therapy was for me to hear what he had to say.
Quote: So my advice was to hang tight to the information for now, deal with these big issues in therapy (since that's where S. does seem to be able to listen & understand issues better) and to not react from her hurt and anger right now. I thought it best not to play into that difference he might perceive between SM and Jennifer.
I have to agree, now that I no longer have steam coming out of my ears, that she is right here.
Quote: he said just what you were saying all along, that he "made such a big deal about going to therapy" because I wasn't hearing him, that I wasn't able to hear him and listen to HIM.
Quote: Incidentally, I did tell him that my ultimate goal was NOT "to get along well enough to raise our daughter, but to be happy together and get married and have a family." I felt I needed to be explicit about that, because he keeps talking about being in T so we can "get along." He said "Yes, it would be great if things were perfect, but we aren't there yet. It would make me very happy if we could just get to the point where we can talk to each other and get along." I asked him if that was his ultimate goal. He finally said that being happy together and getting married and having a family was his ultimate goal (after I had to tell him again that I wasn't asking about his medium-term goals).
J - is it possible you're not hearing him here? You push him until he finally tells you what you want to hear - that he wants to marry you and be a family - but it really sounds to me like that's NOT what he wants right now (or at least, not what he THINKS he wants.) Why do I get the uncomfortable feeling that he is like the spouse who goes to therapy with their LBS just so they will accept the idea that they are divorcing?
Let's face it - the only reason you two aren't getting along is because you want to be given love and reassurance and support, and he is busy looking for excuses not to do that. Let's see, what has the list been? You're too extroverted, you go out too much, you're in debt, you're too irresponsible, you trapped him, you caused him to lose Swiss Miss whom he would have been happy with, you didn't abort his baby and have saddled him with a responsibility he doesn't want, you might keep him from his baby (which he didn't want), you don't take care of enough things, you don't have intellectual enough discussions about films with your friends.....are you seeing a pattern here yet? All things that are either untrue or that you have remedied already - (or are just the natural sequelae of his own behaviors - he can't be with you because you're insecure, but you're insecure because he's not commiting to you) - so he just looks for another excuse when one complaint is no longer valid.
I do think H2H is right, if you told him you snooped, he'd just turn that into his next complaint against you.
I think you probably have a better idea than I do what will work in your sitch right now, but let me make two comments: - what worked before was you going dark. That is why I have suggested before that maybe you need to drop the rope. At the very least, quit trying to get him to admit he wants what you want - that is pursuit. Go to counseling, let him do the talking, listen - and if the right occasion arises, then just tell him - "I love you. I am a beautiful, intelligent, loving, caring woman and I deserve to be loved too. I am beginning to see that maybe you aren't capable of giving me what I need. I need a man who is excited about living with me, who tells me he loves me, who isn't ambivalent about me and always trying to find fault with me."
- second - please figure out your plan B. IF you knew SO was not going to step up to the plate in this R, where would you want to be? At the risk of looking where you don't want to go, I bring this up because of legal issues. If you stay and have the baby in NYC, at what point might he have a legal right to keep you from moving away? And if he did, could you really support yourself there with your earnings and his (probably pitiful given his cheapness) child support? I'm just thinking, if you moved to a place that was better for you to raise a child as a single parent, you should be established there BEFORE he could make a legal move - I doubt the courts would make you move back, but they might prevent you from moving. Flip side, of course, is long-distance visitation is harder - either he'll see less of his child or you'll be in the uncomfortable position of letting a very small child go far away for visitation. I guess I'm really thinking more intermediate solution - like, someplace nice and cheaper, maybe 3 hours away?? Just get some legal advice about all this, would you, since your sitch is so complicated?
So - I guess my advice for counseling is listen, validate, and observe. If it comes up, just state your desires and boundaries calmly and clearly ("I love SO and desire a life with him. I won't settle for half a loaf, though. I am beautiful and intelligent and loving and strong and I deserve a whole loaf of bread."). Drop the rope of trying to pursue or push SO into saying what you want to hear. And hedge your bets with a plan B so you don't feel as though you "need" SO to come through on the practical matters.
Quote: IF you knew SO was not going to step up to the plate in this R, where would you want to be?
I don't know if this is helpful to you, Jennifer, but may I tell you my experience? I was with XH for over 20 years. For each of those years, I waited for him to "step up to the plate." In fact, I used those exact words. I waited for him to step up as a partner, as a parent, as a working person... and guess what? I'm still waiting.
My key learning on this issue is that waiting for someone to step up to the plate is like waiting for Godot. I lost so much time, and patience, and opportunity in my ineffectual waiting. Was he communicating with me by word and deed all along that he never intended to step up? I think sometimes his words and deeds were at odds, but I admit that the idea he wouldn't step up was so surprising to me that I didn't consider it. I tell myself that I saw something in him which he didn't see in himself, but it's what HE sees in himself that governs his own actions.
Quote: "I love you. I am a beautiful, intelligent, loving, caring woman and I deserve to be loved too. I am beginning to see that maybe you aren't capable of giving me what I need. I need a man who is excited about living with me, who tells me he loves me, who isn't ambivalent about me and always trying to find fault with me."
Everyone on this bulletin board needs to copy this quote and repeat it, mantra-like. Excellent truth, Ellie -- and a timely reminder.
Alas one note to MicheleTW got me thinking about the BB and here I am again against my better judgment seeking out fellow NYers.
I have a solution.
Dump S, marry me, move to the leafy suburbs, have comprehensive health insurance, and know that you'll never have to consummate another M because my Church won't stand for it and allow to me to receive communion! In guy parlance, that's known as a soft proposition.
Seriously, the word that comes to mind when reading about S is "surrender". Surrender needn't be a pejorative term, but simply an acknowledgment to forces more powerful to us--and not necessarily divine.
This may sound too simplistic, but S has not surrendered to the notion of being a monogomous husband and father. He has resisted true commitment from Day 1 and continues to desperately hang onto a life that will no longer exist as he knew it if he joins up with you.
I really feel for him because intellectually, he understands responsibility and clearly knows what is the most proper course of action--but he can't make a final decision and stick with it.
One of the most interesting early experiences of my conversion was the palpable interaction between the heart and mind--the intellectual grasping of an amazing revelation and transforming that revelation into a course of action that provided emotional nourishment and satisfaction.
I soon learned that my experience was not unique with lots of folks telling me that the journey betweent heart and was a journey of a lifetime and the longest 18 inches in the world. And it's jounrey that's easy to quit without perseverence. Thus, the key to making a successful journey was to defintiely embark upon making the heart and mind meet, to consciously forge ahead despite the obstacles, and refuse to quit and retreat, i.e., one must surrender to the journey.
With that analogy, I see S as making a pronouncement to take the journey, but a strong desire to retreat or quit to the safe side once the going gets tough. To me, Swiss Miss is nothing more than a diversion from the journey to a simpler past that appears safer than where he has to go. I can really see how it is all so innocent for him, because it is a fantasy. In fact, he may rationalize that's it's better to keep a open-line with her than some other women in the near vicinity where his escape fantasy can become reality.
Unfortunately, as with many a fantasy, this seemingly safe haven is clearly one of the more dangerous places he can go, because rather than a innocent coping mechanism, it seems he is just stalling the day of reckoning where he affirmatively assents to a life with you and your child and makes that the single focus of his life. Apart from you, who is it in his life that can help him discover true peace in the decision? Is there anyone?
Enough of my psychobabble because I also must add that you too have a lot of adjusting to do.
Being lovers and being "parents and lovers" are two very different animals. I failed miserably at my transition and wish I had more help in understanding the distinction (which could take up an entirely new thread). Can the two of you answer the following questions:
What is it that you can do to make J/S truly satisfied in life and why is that important?
What do you gain or lose by doing those things?
Knowing these pros and cons, is it still important enough for you surrender yourself to do these things and making them the most important objectives in your life?
I'm doing a hit and run here so forgive me if I don't catch the nuances of what's going on I just wanted to respond re. the interaction with SO regarding the emails.
I have felt that "strategic deception" or "lies of omission" or well, "lying" has been an issue at times in my M. The pattern took years to develop (of course) but was also a byproduct of our personalities, histories, etc. I'm quick to respond and reply and think nothing of speaking "my truth" (sometimes quite overwhelmingly for the other party) and h tends to prefer avoiding that kind of scene to the extent of ultimately learning to avoid disclosure to avoid the "consequences". It eventually got to the point where he would avoid disclosures in situations where I'm pretty convinced ( ) my reaction wouldn't have been "bad" but I think he felt pretty shell shocked.
It's been a hard pattern for us to break and it's "painful" for both of us. I still react negatively (though now it's more internal but not necessarily less obvious) when I hear things I don't want to hear and then I beat myself up for it (note that often times what I "don't want to hear" is actually the SPIN I put on stuff that h says that's perfectly reasonable) and h still struggles with dealing with my negative reactions. I can see that we've both grown quite a bit in this regard but it's been hard to watch -- I see us both sort of struggling at times...one step forward and two steps back.
Which brings me to my point...wasn't SO's disclosure that he and SM had emailed actually a big step for him? I thought that historically he wouldn't have even disclosed that much? So, yah, while he didn't disclose the full extent or represent the situation entirely accurately, didn't he make a big bold step by taking on your possible reactions by being honest? (or more honest?)
So, if I haven't misread the situation I would say encourage the behavior you want -- the disclosure -- by making it safe for him to tell you things. Baby steps all the way...so instead of negating what he did do (by tweaking him about NOT disclosing all), relish the fact that he did make a positive step.
Now, if I have misread and just babbled on, well, "never mind"!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I'm doing a hit and run here so forgive me if I don't catch the nuances of what's going on I just wanted to respond re. the interaction with SO regarding the emails.
I have felt that "strategic deception" or "lies of omission" or well, "lying" has been an issue at times in my M. The pattern took years to develop (of course) but was also a byproduct of our personalities, histories, etc. I'm quick to respond and reply and think nothing of speaking "my truth" (sometimes quite overwhelmingly for the other party) and h tends to prefer avoiding that kind of scene to the extent of ultimately learning to avoid disclosure to avoid the "consequences". It eventually got to the point where he would avoid disclosures in situations where I'm pretty convinced ( ) my reaction wouldn't have been "bad" but I think he felt pretty shell shocked.
It's been a hard pattern for us to break and it's "painful" for both of us. I still react negatively (though now it's more internal but not necessarily less obvious) when I hear things I don't want to hear and then I beat myself up for it (note that often times what I "don't want to hear" is actually the SPIN I put on stuff that h says that's perfectly reasonable) and h still struggles with dealing with my negative reactions. I can see that we've both grown quite a bit in this regard but it's been hard to watch -- I see us both sort of struggling at times...one step forward and two steps back.
Which brings me to my point...wasn't SO's disclosure that he and SM had emailed actually a big step for him? I thought that historically he wouldn't have even disclosed that much? So, yah, while he didn't disclose the full extent or represent the situation entirely accurately, didn't he make a big bold step by taking on your possible reactions by being honest? (or more honest?)
So, if I haven't misread the situation I would say encourage the behavior you want -- the disclosure -- by making it safe for him to tell you things. Baby steps all the way...so instead of negating what he did do (by tweaking him about NOT disclosing all), relish the fact that he did make a positive step.
Now, if I have misread and just babbled on, well, "never mind"!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I'm doing a hit and run here so forgive me if I don't catch the nuances of what's going on I just wanted to respond re. the interaction with SO regarding the emails.
I have felt that "strategic deception" or "lies of omission" or well, "lying" has been an issue at times in my M. The pattern took years to develop (of course) but was also a byproduct of our personalities, histories, etc. I'm quick to respond and reply and think nothing of speaking "my truth" (sometimes quite overwhelmingly for the other party) and h tends to prefer avoiding that kind of scene to the extent of ultimately learning to avoid disclosure to avoid the "consequences". It eventually got to the point where he would avoid disclosures in situations where I'm pretty convinced ( ) my reaction wouldn't have been "bad" but I think he felt pretty shell shocked.
It's been a hard pattern for us to break and it's "painful" for both of us. I still react negatively (though now it's more internal but not necessarily less obvious) when I hear things I don't want to hear and then I beat myself up for it (note that often times what I "don't want to hear" is actually the SPIN I put on stuff that h says that's perfectly reasonable) and h still struggles with dealing with my negative reactions. I can see that we've both grown quite a bit in this regard but it's been hard to watch -- I see us both sort of struggling at times...one step forward and two steps back.
Which brings me to my point...wasn't SO's disclosure that he and SM had emailed actually a big step for him? I thought that historically he wouldn't have even disclosed that much? So, yah, while he didn't disclose the full extent or represent the situation entirely accurately, didn't he make a big bold step by taking on your possible reactions by being honest? (or more honest?)
So, if I haven't misread the situation I would say encourage the behavior you want -- the disclosure -- by making it safe for him to tell you things. Baby steps all the way...so instead of negating what he did do (by tweaking him about NOT disclosing all), relish the fact that he did make a positive step.
Now, if I have misread and just babbled on, well, "never mind"!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Hi guys, and thank you so much for the support and wonderful insights. I admit to being overwhelmed by it all, and I hope to be able to process more of what you’ve written in the coming days.
T was interesting yesterday. Unfortunately, the topic did not stay on SM or S.’s contact with SM, but ventured into the 20-Something Women Friends – Why So Many? category, which was great for me because I had the obvious support (and a very rare show of any sort of “siding”) of the T, who asked very difficult Qs of S. It’s so convoluted and complicated I don’t even feel like going into it here, but suffice it to say that I’m beginning to think that S. isn’t actually a bum or a deadbeat or a loser, he’s just a weirdo. I’m really only partly kidding.
He kept referring to the past, what had happened in the past (my disinterest in a R with him, my inability to “see” him, my using him for sex ), and the T kept asking him to talk about NOW, saying that he had all the power to change things NOW, and that informing yourself by the past is OK as long as you don’t stay rooted there. She really kept having to interrupt and bring him back. He was frustrated and sometimes flustered, but she stayed with him and he pulled through. He did say that the subject of SM was so overwhelmingly broad that he was reluctant to tackle it in vague terms, but that we needed to get “more specific” – I regret not being able to stay on topic, but talking about the 20-something addiction was illuminating. (Please, my 20-something friends on the BB, I’m not an age-ist, but the volume of very young women S. “meets and connects with on an intimately intellectual level” is quite troublesome to me, considering his age [41] and dearth of male friends or women friends closer to his age.) I was able to say that the reason young women are the ones who he connects with - and not older women, or men - is that these women are available. They are more naïve, ready to meet people, and perhaps more effusive about talking about subjects that are closer to the things they studied in college. I said that no 40-year-old woman in a happily monogamous R would give him her phone number in a bar in order to continue a conversation about Anna Karenina.
Next week for sure I will make certain we start with SM and stay with her.
I was also able to say that my bottom line is to be in a R with someone who doesn’t allow the specter of some other person or people to hang around, and that it was unacceptable to me for him to have any manner of secret, exclusive, intimate (intellectually or otherwise) “friendship” with any other woman, and that this type of R would be a deal-breaker for me. I’m not being so eloquent here, because I’m trying to get it all down, but the T seemed to back me up.
Fast-forward to today - S. and I had a somewhat difficult talk over lunch about our L-T goals and what they were. (Ellie, to be fair, I had simply been asking him to state what they were – I’m not sure I’m getting the nuance over but I don’t think I was pushing him for a particular answer, just AN answer. But I hear you, and I’ve made a note of it to watch myself for leading comments and pushing. Thank you.) I was reiterating my L-T goals and saying that if his differed from mine that we should talk about co-parenting in T rather than spending any more time trying to heal our romantic R. I said I didn’t want to live together under some pretense of a family, and how trapped in NY I felt because I wouldn’t take the baby away, but the finances of trying to afford a separate apartment were daunting (Merrick’s proposal notwithstanding ). S. was defensive and somewhat what-about-me but stayed with me for the most part. I had to bring him back to what I wanted to convey a few times when he got off on a tangent about something he heard that I didn’t actually say. I remained calm, and I reassured him several times that I wasn’t going to take the baby away from him, but it was still a very difficult conversation.
As the conversation became more strained and I felt more like we were standing ground rather than trying to understand each other, we both sort of snapped at the same time. Right as I was putting my face in my hands and “tuning up,” as my Dad always said, S. said, “Jennifer, let me reiterate something to you, because I want to make this perfectly clear. I want to be happy with you, in a relationship with you, and my ultimate goal is for us to be happy, together.” When he saw me starting to cry, he came over to hug me and I ended up by baring all vulnerability and saying I was really scared. I said I was scared of getting hurt again and I was scared of putting my energy toward a romantic partnership if he didn’t want that with me. He said he was scared, too.
It did an amazing amount of good (I thought about H2H as I was saying it, because she’s told me several times that I hardly ever show him [and you on the BB] my true vulnerability). It opened up the dialog for much more tender talk. He said he wanted me to be happy, wanted me to be happy with him. He also said that if I didn’t choose to be with him, and that I found happiness with someone else, then it would hurt, but he’d have to deal with that, because he can’t make me love him. I asked if he wanted me to love him, and he said, “Of course I do.” He said he was scared I would leave, and he doesn’t want me to leave, and granted, I ASSumed it to mean me (and not just the baby), but I’m pretty certain that’s what he meant (at that moment).
Since I’ve been monumentally busy with work, he asked if I could possibly give him some rough estimate of times I would “knock off” from work (I work at home) so that we could spend some time together and not let work just bleed into the whole evening until bedtime. This is the third time he’s asked for QT in this way, saying we need to spend more time together, so that’s encouraging.
I told S. I’d look into going to see a lawyer about a D next week. (Michele, thank you for bringing up making a good-faith effort to look into why I haven’t made a move to end my paper M – I had asked myself the Q many times before but never made myself answer it. My paper H and I had already decided this year to D, because of tax reasons, just before I found out about the pregnancy. And so far I’ve been “too busy” to look into it. S. has brought it up several times as a “barrier,” and while I think it’s an excuse for him, I want to clear MY OWN energy for whatever happens, including being responsible for my own health insurance. I’m a big girl now.)
S. did mention in our conv. something about the possibility of getting M before the baby’s born just to make things easier as far as custody questions, etc., and I said I wouldn’t marry him for that reason. He wants to see a lawyer together about our rights and responsibilities (mainly to make sure I can’t run off with the baby and leave him). I assured him that the father’s name on the birth certificate would be his. He seemed relieved.
Quote: He has resisted true commitment from Day 1 and continues to desperately hang onto a life that will no longer exist as he knew it if he joins up with you. [snip, on to SM] Unfortunately, as with many a fantasy, this seemingly safe haven is clearly one of the more dangerous places he can go, because rather than a innocent coping mechanism, it seems he is just stalling the day of reckoning where he affirmatively assents to a life with you and your child and makes that the single focus of his life. Apart from you, who is it in his life that can help him discover true peace in the decision? Is there anyone?
Exactly, Merrick. I’ve always said that S. says he wants a family but acts like a single man. I wish he had a close friend who wasn’t (a) 20, (b) a misanthrope, (c) a “guy’s guy” (d) someone with whom he’s had an affair. Sadly, the people who could benefit him the most by providing a clear and mature support are far away and not really in the loop. Thanks for the questions. Lots to mull over.
[pant pant] OK, folks, that’s it for now. If you’ve made it this far, you get a GOLD STAR on the house!
Quote: Right as I was putting my face in my hands and “tuning up,” as my Dad always said, S. said, “Jennifer, let me reiterate something to you, because I want to make this perfectly clear. I want to be happy with you, in a relationship with you, and my ultimate goal is for us to be happy, together.”
Wow - that's a pretty big admission on his part
Quote: but the volume of very young women S. “meets and connects with on an intimately intellectual level” is quite troublesome to me, considering his age [41] and dearth of male friends or women friends closer to his age.) I was able to say that the reason young women are the ones who he connects with - and not older women, or men - is that these women are available. They are more naïve, ready to meet people, and perhaps more effusive about talking about subjects that are closer to the things they studied in college. I said that no 40-year-old woman in a happily monogamous R would give him her phone number in a bar in order to continue a conversation about Anna Karenina.
DUH!!! Sounds like SO has a pretty fragile ego - and needs to feel important by having some young thing look up to his "profound" insights (which his forty-something friends might not be so impressed with, right?).
- it makes me feel very supported.
I just wanted to respond re. the interaction with SO regarding the emails.