Thanks for checking on me! I'm in rainy Ga. visiting my parents, have been for 10 days, so I haven't had the wherewithal to post. I fly out tomorrow, so you'll get a better update when I return, but here's a quickie rundown.
First of all, I am feeling fantastic and the beautiful, wonderful baby is kicking and squirming more and more every day. She even has a strong will of her own - she kicked me good once when my mom suggested a name and I repeated it - she obviously didn't like it! I went on two good hikes with my family - one 6.5 miles to 5700 feet and one shorter, 4.5-mile one that didn't climb as high. I felt great and strong and the baby loved those great endorphins.
Otherwise, things are good and bad with S. I thought things were OK - we had a good T session, and I left town to S.'s lamenting my departure. He missed me immediately and has been calling a lot. We've had some great little chats, then Thursday night late, a very difficult one, after I needed to talk to him about the pressure I was dealing here with everyone asking when we were getting married. I was very upset, because the pressure extended to finding out that my mother had been "reluctant to tell people" about my pregnancy, which caused a very awkward moment with one of her close friends who, when I brought up the pregnancy (on the phone), she said "OH! I'm glad YOU brought it up - I wasn't sure if you wanted to talk about it!" (Huh? What ELSE am I going to talk about when you ask what's going on with me?)
Anyway, the morning after that difficult and late conversation, during which we got cut off and couldn't get back in touch, S. called to say he was sorry he hadn't been able to listen the way he needed to and support me and empathize. All good, right? Nope... an hour later he responded, against our recently renewed agreement, to an e-mail Swiss Miss had sent last week (after the London bombings reminded her of 9/11, which she spent with S., and after not having had any contact since March), with this lovely missive:
Quote: Dear [Swiss Miss], The flood of memories, images and feelings from 9/11 has been intense. Memories of you, of course, of watching burning towers from [my neighborhood] park, that smell; of our time in London [at friend's wedding]; [S.'s friend outside of London's] wedding; the weekend before 9/11 [when they slept together for the first time and he says he was so happy with her]. All together, coming back in a rush - the pure happiness, the shock, the sadness - together almost overwhelming, they bring me close to tears.
And it makes me angry and sad that so many ordinary people, people like you and me and all the people around us have to pay with their lives, have to go through the pain and distress caused by so few zealots.
Getting this note from you makes me so relieved, happy, and torn up inside.
You are in my thoughts often, I am very glad you are safe. I want you to be healthy and happy and not working too hard. I so desperately want to talk to you, but maybe not here in this note.
I sent a note to [friend outside of London] from work to him at work and have not yet heard (but am sure he is safe). I will let you know.
[S.]
So, things are bad. I can't confront him with this, because it was in his e-mail, but now I'm sick at the thought of seeing him at the airport tomorrow. I have to pretend I'm happy to see him, when I just want to scream in his face and tell him to f**k off. He even had told me right before I left that he wouldn't contact her until we'd had a chance to bring it up in T, which is Tuesday morning - he couldn't even wait five days?
Anyway, that's where I am, and I've thought a lot about what you all have said above. Those thoughts later when I have more time to sit here and compose them and I'm safely back at home.
I have to admit, I'm ready to throw in the towel. I've felt like throwing up since this morning, when I saw the message. All the horrible nervous stomach junk that's NOT GOOD FOR MY BABY. And I've talked to him twice since he sent it... oh, he misses me, etc. I'm so hurt and disappointed and angry and sad, and I can't go on much longer like this, certainly not any longer looking over my shoulder for some chick in Lederhosen.
Let me add that I'm not proud of my snooping (nor, obviously, am I above it... yet). I vowed to myself that once this issue with SM is resolved, I will stop. Unfortunately for all involved, this is not yet resolved. I'm getting closer to my bottom line on this.
Last night S. called and told me immediately of her e-mail and of his "two-line response saying that [friend outside London] was sure to be OK" (as much as five days later is immediately). So, a little lying, and lot of difficult conversation about how he didn't think this "applied" to our agreement since it was about the London bombings and so brief. Well, exactly.
I just told him I was upset and hurt and didn't know how to make any agreements with him anymore, that I didn't know what it meant to him to say "I won't do X" anymore, because it obviously didn't mean he wouldn't do X. I told him I needed some space to tihnk about what this means to me, and he asked me to first find out what it means to HIM, so that whatever I tihkn about will be based on "truth" and not what I believe to be the truth - according to him, some imagined "meaning."
I said I'd think about it, thinking all the while that he is doing it again - making me feel crazy about something he is lying about. Two-line e-mail? About nothing but his friend outside London? I am thinking about asking him to print out his e-mail and bring it to T. Doesn't this need to be settled with all the information on the table?
I don't know, I'm so confused and stung by it I don't know what I'm supposed to do.
I'd be inclined to print out that email and have it in your pocket. When he hangs himself at T, pull it out. I'd also be inclined to leave T, letting the therapist deal with him directly on this one.
Yeah, snooping is bad, but so is lying and denial. Seems to me your choices are to believe his lies, leave it all behind, or do what it takes to break through the denial.
I've given my thoughts to Jennifer offline, but I wanted to comment on SD's inclination to print out the email & have it ready for 'pouncing'. . .
First, I can say that I DO understand that inclination. The shades of lies and denials on the part of S. are infuriating and hurtful. HOWEVER, as I told J., do you want to be RIGHT or do you want to be HAPPY?
I believe she IS right in that S. is not being honest and his actions are damaging to their relationship. But I don't think confronting him will actually make him deal with his lying and denial. It will more likely make him defensive AND project his guilt & anger on to Jennifer. It will give him cause to say "see, she's so controlling. She's a snoop. This is why our R. isn't working." I truly believe that there is little J. or anyone else can do to make him confront his actions and the consequences of his actions, UNTIL he is ready to do so . . . When lying stops working for him, he will be able to consider why he does it, and how he might want to change that behavior. Right now, if he does it, it must be because it 'gives' him something. What that something is remains to be seen, or perhaps it's something he's afraid of 'losing' if he tells the truth. Either way the answer is within him and my guess is that it will take some very careful navigating to get him to open up.
I also think that confronting him will likely make the comparison between Swiss Miss (SM) and Jennifer more glaring in his own mind. SM will remain in that fond memory (fantasy) category and J. will be the irritant in his life. So my advice was to hang tight to the information for now, deal with these big issues in therapy (since that's where S. does seem to be able to listen & understand issues better) and to not react from her hurt and anger right now. I thought it best not to play into that difference he might perceive between SM and Jennifer.
Is it fair? Well, no . . . but given the situation in which J. & S. are about to become parents, I think it might be wiser to cool off some, consider the long term effect of their actions and work on being happy rather than right. This is not a simple issue and in my belief will take some considerable time to unravel... Ugh!
I know this issue of Lying quite well as my SO is a Lies of Omission guy too. It frustrates the hell out of me and has been quite painful at times. Only very recently (within the last 2 weeks) we have been able to have a decent conversation about this topic. He is NOW more able to talk about it and admit that he does do this to protect himself, and to protect me - or rather my image of him. He is slowly getting that it does exactly the opposite - it tarnishes my image of him. It is a slow process. He has to learn that telling me the truth is OK - that it may be painful at times, but not nearly as destructive as when he chooses to lie about something. That requires incredible effort and patience on my part - resisting the urge to clobber him with "The Truth" and waiting for a calmer moment to expose the consequences of his dishonesty.
So in the end I'd add a third choice to SD's list, which is to do what it takes to break through the denial in a gracious, non-injurious, slow manner. The idea being that you want to help work on this issue together, not simply point out his shortcomings.
Hmm. Interesting, H2H. Yes, my thoughts are sharing space with outrage about this. Your POV makes me realize that Jennifer's response will have to be chosen based on her priorities.
Quote: When lying stops working for him, he will be able to consider why he does it, and how he might want to change that behavior.
I agree. I think Jennifer has the power to stop letting it work for him in their R. I find it hard to imagine what, short of Jennifer leaving, would register as not working for him. I think strategy depends on how much of a deal breaker this is. I don't think slow and gentle ever breaks through anyone's denial. That sad fact is why we all ended up here to begin with.
I'm also thinking about Gottman's claim that successful Rs are the ones that never tolerated unacceptable behavior from the beginning. If lying is unacceptable, then it shouldn't be tolerated now in the hopes of making progress later.
You may well be right about forcing unpleasant comparisons to Swiss Miss. It's a catch-22. Is it really the goal to be the "winner" of a guy who's lying? If S. isn't mature enough to respect someone who demands honesty, then well, maybe Jennifer would rather send him to Switzerland.
I'm probably too harsh and too willing to boot him. H2H, I worry that your response, while much calmer and gentler, has the effect of enabling and perpetuating unacceptable behavior. Hmm, I wonder what the DB coaches would say? It probably comes down to Jennifer's priorities.
Quote: Your POV makes me realize that Jennifer's response will have to be chosen based on her priorities.
Yes and this is precisely what I told her when we spoke yesterday - that she needed to decide what her priorities were before deciding her response.
Quote: I think Jennifer has the power to stop letting it work for him in their R.
Yes I think she does have that power, but how she does that, IMHO, can be one of several ways. I disagree with you on that slow & gentle doesn't work. . . I don't think it's easy, but I do think it can work, especially in light of one's other priorities. Perhaps it's more that I believe that clobbering him with the 'facts' definitely won't work. . . Calling someone a Liar is never going to get them to break through their denial, I think.
Quote: I'm also thinking about Gottman's claim that successful Rs are the ones that never tolerated unacceptable behavior from the beginning. If lying is unacceptable, then it shouldn't be tolerated now in the hopes of making progress later.
Yes, I remember that from Gottman too, but if Jennifer is saying that lying is unacceptable, then she's got to 'fess up to her snooping and end her lying. Reading email is, IMHO, a really big thing. I would be absolutely outraged and livid, and it would be a deal breaker for me. I am struggling with this issue of snooping myself - I have very limited ability to snoop, but I do use that ability still. So I ponder this issue often and take it seriously. How can I expect him to be 100% honest, when I am being less than honest myself? Are there ever 'good' reasons for truth bending? Is it okay for me, but not for him?
Quote: H2H, I worry that your response, while much calmer and gentler, has the effect of enabling and perpetuating unacceptable behavior. Hmm, I wonder what the DB coaches would say?
It is hard to say isn't it? I certainly agree that I don't want to do anything to enable or perpetuate the lying. I can only say that confrontation has NEVER (in my own sitch) resolved the issue. It made all matters worse . . . However, if I had chosen to ditch SO, then yes I guess it would have worked because he would have no chance to lie to me. But again I return to the idea that it's not too fair to set standards for others that I myself may be failing to meet. And more importantly, I ask myself what I might get from taking a righteous or judgmental position. Would that get me closer to my goals? And in Jennifer's case, the upcoming baby puts a whole different 'element' into the mix.
I'd be very interested in hearing what the DB coaches say? Hey Jennifer, why not ask your T. (Warren) about it?
-H2H
PS: I think Ellie's suggestion of saying you'd feel more comfortable seeing both her message & his response might be a very idea.... I think it might need some pondering at what his response(s) will be, and how you will respond back.
I went on two good hikes with my family - one 6.5 miles to 5700 feet and one shorter, 4.5-mile one that didn't climb as high. I felt great and strong and the baby loved those great endorphins.