Thanks, H2H, Stubborn, and Wendy. And Anne, it's great to see you again!
I guess I’m feeling positive, though we continue to have these little glitches that threaten to pull us down. Last night was nice – S. came over after I’d had a nap, and I wanted to shower so he cooked a lovely dinner, then we sat down with the boys (my flatmates) to watch two episodes of a three-part PBS series based on Jared Diamond’s book Guns, Germs & Steel that is coming out in July (S. got advance DVDs from a reviewer at his workplace). He even fixed me a second bowl of ice cream (with cherries, none of which were askew!).
So afterward, the boys got up and walked out of the living room, and S was acting a little weird, and I waited, but he didn’t say anything so I asked him if he was coming to bed and I took the bowls to the kitchen. When we got to bed, he started talking about the series, and we talked about it until I started getting sleepy, and I finally said “I’m falling asleep, I’m sorry I’m not really able to respond anymore.” and he said something that led him to say “Nobody wanted to discuss it after it was over – everyone just got up and left the room without discussing the ideas that were presented – and it was so interesting. I can’t believe you don’t do that.”
And that pushed my Value Judgment Alert button, and I woke right up and we talked about it. Being lumped in with the boys like that irked me, as well as S.’s assumption that I didn’t want to talk about it just because I didn’t talk about it RIGHT THEN, when we were going up to bed anyway and I had been sitting on the floor and wanted to get up. And all that boiled down (to me) to his saying, “I can’t believe you have no interest in intellectual discussion.” And with the help of MVE, he saw how it was pejorative rather than an innocuous comment.
We also talked some about our own set of values about what’s appropriate (like his keeping all his old letters from every girlfriend who ever wrote him one – ugh) and how eventually those values will determine whether we decide to stay together or not. And I had said something about what’s appropriate when you’re “in a lifelong partnership,” and he said, “We’re not in a lifelong partnership.” And I was silent, and he said, “At least we don’t know if we are or not right now.” So I guess I can agree, since we aren’t engaged or anything, and we’re still working through some fundamental differences, but it still stung.
But we managed to go to sleep relatively unscathed and today is a new day. His stress level with his house is high (they started demolition Monday and he is basically living at my house now), and his remaining tenants have not moved out yet – 21 days after their last day of notice to vacate. So I’ve been putting a big old filter on my own thoughts and needs for the moment, and it’s been working for the most part, and we’re generally much more loving and cheerful. I’m trying to let things go while this work is being done so I don’t add to his stress.
It’s frustrating, though… I feel so up-in-the-air when he says things like that, though his actions say he’s here to stay. I know he’ll always be here for the little one, but I must admit, a parenting partnership rather than a family doesn’t sound all that rosy to me.
Quote: And I had said something about what’s appropriate when you’re “in a lifelong partnership,” and he said, “We’re not in a lifelong partnership.” And I was silent, and he said, “At least we don’t know if we are or not right now.
J - I'm going to propose something here that may be unpopular, but here goes: I don't think you should live with him until you are married.
I say this because I think you risk putting yourself in a position where he has NO INCENTIVE to ever commit to you. I've often wondered how women got themselves into those positions where they were living with a guy and had 3 kids by him and he still wouldn't marry them - now I think I see how it starts.
I know, it seems much more convenient, financially and otherwise, to live together with a new baby coming. But I shudder to think of the pain and aggravation of having to move out in six months or a year when it becomes obvious that SO will never commit, or worse, that he has sought refuge in another affair.
SO needs to make a commitment. I'm not saying now, but before you put your security and peace of mind in his hands. I think he's telling you and showing you pretty clearly that he's not ready to make a commitment to you, and living together and playing pretend family is not going to make that more likely to happen, IMHO.On the other hand, living apart and dating, while he worries about losing you and falls more and more in love with his child and begins to see what a great thing it might be to have a family to come home to, just might bring him around.
Time for a plan B, I'm thinking. I know you talked about going to live at your parents' vacation home, but I do think it's important for SO to see and bond with the baby. Obviously your current roommates didn't bargain for a newborn. Where else could you live that would be comfortable and supportive for you and baby?
I wouldn't present it as an ultimatum to SO, or as a punishment. Just as a statement of what you desire - "SO, I've decided I really don't want to live with anyone unless I have a marital commitment. I think we should date and see where our relationship goes, but until you really want to marry me and make this a lifelong commitment, I don't think we should live together."
Quote: “We’re not in a lifelong partnership.” And I was silent, and he said, “At least we don’t know if we are or not right now.”
Jennifer, I am working as a coach. If I heard a client say this, I'd press on what it would take for him to KNOW if he was in a lifetime partnership. What concrete things would he have to know? What goals would need to be met?
This is probably a good conversation to have in C, rather than one on one, because there's so much behind it -- emotions, feelings, the future. But if he were my client, that's what I'd ask him.
Keep the faith (and thanks for your kindness to me at this tough time), Michele
Quote: I'd press on what it would take for him to KNOW if he was in a lifetime partnership. What concrete things would he have to know? What goals would need to be met?
Well, I'm not a coach but I play one over lunch! These are the same questions I asked as we shared a yummy Pan-Asian lunch w/ Jennifer today. What I didn't think of, but now agree with Michelle, is that it would be a good topic to raise in therapy.
Skewed cherries aside, I can say that the enhanced peace in the relationship is showing on your face - and your belly's looking good too!
Thank you, thank you, friends. A lot to mull over. I was summoned to and then banished from the kitchen (S. is cooking up something that takes up all the counter space and apparently, all the pots and pans), and so I have a brief moment to write before dinner is served...
Michele, you are welcome at our lunch table! Next week, I'm around Tuesday and Wednesday only, then I'm headed to Ga. for a week and a half of unconditional love.
I'd love to meet you, and I'm sure H2H would be thrilled, as well.
Dear Jennifer Now I've read your thread I feel superficial and lazy - lazy because I have boycotted the potager and instead am having a R that goes no further than chat! Your natural exuberance is 'formidable' (said with french accent) lots of love
Jennifer- You have lots to think over with Ellie's comment/suggestion. I want to add that I wish I had known for sure that my ex was a devoted man before we got married. I thought that getting married would make him devoted, but I was wrong. He was a leaver before when things got stressed, and he is still a leaver. The marriage didn't change him fundamentally (added more guilt probably about his leaving tendency).
I think that you will be a fantastic mom whether he lives with you or not. And your baby will feel loved and cherished whether he lives with you or not. It is always best for the babies if the parents are rock solid together IMHO. I think you can definitely be a rock solid parent without having SO married or living with you. Can you act as if for now if you don't beleive while SO flounders? Does this make sense?
(I never thought I could make it on my own, but I have 2 incredible healthy kids after 2 divorces now-it's not ideal for sure, and there will be junk down the raod perhaps, BUT I am jsut sayign I wish I had know for sure that H2 was devoted b4 the ceremony)
Thanks for visiting my thread! You always give me such sound gems of truth and advice.
Yesterday's T was all over the place, but a lot of interesting stuff came up. The T started talking about values, and S. listed and talked about his, and she started to ask me about mine when we got onto a tangent about drinking, then sexual inhibition, and then we started to talk about our M issue. I had to explain about my H (reminding everybody that I am M on paper to a good friend who is gay and live with him and his partner), and then we began to talk when time ran out. Here are some highlights...
The T pinned S. down on what the issues were, because he was saying "I can't even think about marrying her because she's already married," and she said "This seems like a departure from what I understood all along, from what you've said and from your intake questionnaire, which was Jennifer wants to marry you but you're hedging, and every time I broach the subject I get 'I don't know' from both of you, and now you're saying her M to [H] is a big issue." And S. admitted that he is hedging. And I can't remember some of it - it was confusing. But we talked about it more when we got home, and he is still really stuck in the "You chose to have this child and force this on me," and a LOT about my divorcing [H], which really only boiled down to that it would make him feel more comfortable in his rights as the father of the child (he said he wanted to consult a lawyer).
He also wants me to tell my parents I'm married to [H] so that they "know the whole truth" and they won't think that we're not getting M because of S. Apparently, he is really concerned about what my parents think of him, related to why we're not getting married, and basically doesn't respect my decision not to tell them about [H], because it shows "I'm not ready to take responsibility for my actions." And I said, "OK, let's pretend for a moment that I wasn't married. Would we be married now?" and I waited, and no answer came, and so I said "No, right?" and I went on to ask then why is this such an issue, to which he got off on another tangent and didn't answer the question. He mentioned consulting a lawyer several times (about his rights and responsibilities as a father). He is really afraid of “losing custody rights.”
I have to say, I started feeling really trapped again, like "This guy is only with me because he wants this baby, and he's going to try to control my life as much as he can." Scary, scary.
I'm not going to change the path I'm on toward trying to work this out and be happy together, but I'm starting to feel like this could be really scary - he kept saying "Why can't there be a third option [aside from getting married and not marrying and living separately] something in between, like where we strive to get along and be good parents?" And I wondered aloud if he meant living together forever, just not as a couple, and I said that wasn't really acceptable to me. Honestly, I have no idea WHAT he thinks. I hope to talk more about this in T next week. He did say that he is "still working on this R, trying to make it better," but he didn't say to what end. He seemed to be implying that he would want this to be a marriage if it were working for us, but right now it's not.
He said he saw the potential for us working through our problems and making each other happy. I asked if he saw progress now, and he said things are starting to get there. (Yesterday we went to the park and had a lot of fun playing catch with our baseball gloves and laughing. We had a fun date last weekend. We're able to talk to each other a lot more easily. We aren't so quick to be defensive.)
He kept reverting to bad patterns in our conv, and I avoided conflict entirely, and kept saying things like "I can see you're not ready to hear how I feel, and that's OK. I can wait to talk to you about this some other time." And after a particularly nasty bout of pouting and childish rejoinders from him, "I'm going to get up and go to the bathroom now, and when I get back, I'm going to go to sleep. I'm finding I can't talk to you about this now, and the way you're responding to me isn't productive."
And when I came back, he said "I'm sorry, I'm really tired and I just can't talk about this right now," and I said "That's fine," and we just went to sleep, each clinging to our own side of the bed.
This morning he was affectionate when he woke up, but my back was to him and I was sleepy, so I didn't really respond. He kept kissing my shoulder. I don't know what is up with him. Yuck.
MidiP, thanks for the WOA! I feel very energetic, and I suppose I’ll be slowing way down soon enough. Thank you, too, Anne, for the WOA. I know deep down that I’ll be fine and my little girl will be fine. It’s just so hard to negotiate these things from such an abstract perspective (she isn’t here yet!).
Thank you, Ellie, your post really has me thinking. I’ll be thinking about it for a while, I imagine. I touched on maybe not living together last night and S. nearly hyperventilated. He started sputtering about how the baby comes first and that we need to put our own needs aside for her. And it sent him on another bout of whiny speak about how HE wanted to be married first before he had children, and HE wanted to be in a happy, stable R, and HE wanted this and that. (As if I didn’t want these things? And every time I say that I wanted them, too, he gets “Superior Man” voice on and says something like “Well, YOU chose to have this child” (as if it were choosing to have ice cream or not? WTF?!?!?!) “without thinking of the consequences.” It’s really astounding that he thinks that choosing to have a child or not is a decision that can be made solely on the basis of whether it’s the perfect circumstances or not. Not perfect? Terminate. Well, OK, if that’s what you believe, but don’t try to force that on me! I certainly don’t subscribe to the religious right’s views on abortion, but I am very clear in my own spirituality that knocking off a pregnancy because “it ain’t convenient” just isn’t in my repertoire.
For all of my friends here who have different religious views and who may be offended by the above, I respect your views absolutely. No offense to you or your religious beliefs is intended.
Michele and H2H, thank you for your questions, and your astute observations. I’m trying to bring these things up in T. What, exactly, does a lifelong partnership mean to S.? What are the alternatives, according to him? Our T seems to want us to wander from subject to subject, but she insists there’s a method to the madness. Next week I will insist on bringing this up again, since we started it and didn’t finish last night.
I’ll close now, and insights from tribal elders is greatly appreciated (and much needed). I’m very confused and scared right now as to what this all means, and what to do about or with any of it.
Jennifer, I am struck by something and just have to say it. You can never know the mind of another person unless they choose to share it with you. Even then, they may choose to only share part of their mind with you. Some people keep parts of themselves hidden -- even to themselves.
We can speculate ad naseum the motivations of people in our lives, but all we can know is our own. I'd ask you to look at your own, rather than his.
Is living with him bringing more love into your world, or taking it away?
Would being M to him bring more love into your world, or take it away?
It's interesting to note that you want to be M to him, yet you are already M to an unavailable man. In a good faith effort, perhaps you could examine why you haven't terminated that M.
We have a choice to have an effortless life. We can choose the peaceful path. To do so, we have to understand and love ourselves, and strive to be authentic in all our Rs. Even the one we have with ourselves. I believe when we fight our own self and the Universe, we set our selves up for an effort-full life over an effortless one. Make sense?
He is who he is. He will change, or not. He will come to the idea of a M with you, or not. He will father that child throughout her life, or not. You can't know, so why try to? All you can know for sure is that you will adapt and handle whatever adversity or joy comes your way. That's resilience.
Decide on the life you want and live it. If you want a life coherent with your values, goals and truths, then live your values, goals and truths. If others choose to join you, great. If you do it by yourself, for yourself -- child, your life will be so joyful. With or without him.
