The empathizing is valuable because it shows that you are capable of seeing how your egregious behavior could have made someone feel. It's getting into their world, and trying to look at, say, how the way you breathe could really be so danged offensive as to cause the victim's distress. And relating your own experience can be done like I showed above - by using the generic "you" to refer to "one," as in, "One thinks one has a good experience, but..."
I do see your point. When S. was starting to empathize, I was afraid he was about to say "I see how you could feel that way because YOU have really pissed me off by doing this and such, and that made me feel the same way you are feeling now." And it would probably have made me angry. But he made a save at the buzzer, and turned it into the generic "you." It really works, I promise.
This morning we go to T again. These last few days have been strained, and I'm trying to deal with very little physical contact and affection. Our morning interaction has consisted of S. getting out of bed, getting dressed, and then going back over to his side of the bed (which is harder to get to and farther away) to lean way over it and squeeze my arm before he leaves.
The last conversation we had about moving, he casually and without explanation changed the date to "end of August" rather than the previous "end of July." So I'm trying to shut up and just listen, to see where that is coming from. But it is killing me. And he has been blaming me for a lot of his own stuff, which I have NOT been able to shut up about, and thus we've been engaged in difficult, pointless conversations in which I ask why it's my fault and he very calmly explains. WTF.
Anyway, onward and upward. I'm trying to get back into my reading and journaling, because I feel very far from reflective about what's happening with ME and what MY needs are that I need to take care of MYSELF. I'm very stuck and bogged down right now, and need to give myself a push...
I too enjoyed your laying out the multi-color explanation of Mirroring, Validating & Empathizing (M-V-E'ing) and am still chewing on it. I often find it hard in the middle of a 'touchy' discussion to pause and Mirror back to SO. I think if I could master that nanosecond where I have the choice to reflect back what he's said and ask if it's true, I could probably comfortably find my way to Validating and Empathizing. It's that moment where you either REACT or RESPOND that's a toughie for me sometimes.
I think the fact that you both have gone through the exercise together is also a plus which I currently don't have. As I said to you earlier, I think the key will be to remember to use these tools when outside the therapist's office. And I suggested you & S. come up with a signal, or 'bid' a la Gottman, that you both recognize as a cue to come back to M-V-E'ing. So that you can both stop and 'hear' what the other one is saying.
Quote: I'm trying to get back into my reading and journaling, because I feel very far from reflective about what's happening with ME and what MY needs are that I need to take care of MYSELF. I'm very stuck and bogged down right now, and need to give myself a push...
I agree about journaling - for me it often helps me see a pattern, or a recurring 'issue' that I miss when bogged down in the day to day stuff. My mind seems to work differently when writing things down - interesting thoughts pop up and sometimes odd connections surface in ways not possible when I'm just in my head. So, here's your virtual PUSH to keep going w/ the journaling.
Thanks, H2H, I'm getting ever closer to pulling out that geek notebook, as we've called it. One thing is that I get so much journaling through our e-mails that I neglect to write to myself. I need to make time for it.
Here's a lengthy journal for everyone but H2H, who suffered through a long e-mail with all this in it already :
This weekend has been very tough. We are having some really deeply troubling and difficult conversations. This morning was about lying and dishonesty in our R and why S. can’t seem to bring himself to be accountable for it. He’ll say things like (talking about the X lie) “when you speak of the lie, as you call it ...” and “When the - as you call it - the ‘betrayal’ happened with [Swiss Miss]...” and there’s no personal accountability for having misled me, lied to me, or completely betrayed my trust. So I decided to talk to him about it, because this is how he was talking in therapy.
My BB friends are cringing right now, I can tell. Well, I already awarded myself a big gold star for not personalizing, or backing him into a corner, and we actually had a productive and informative conversation about this. I was able to listen and validate, and though he balked at times, I was able to bring him back gently and with understanding, and he was able to be more honest with me that I think he’s felt comfortable with in a long time. And he said some troubling things, like he admitted that contacting Swiss Miss in times of absolute crisis in our R (as opposed to some other friend instead) was an attempt to reach out to someone whom he felt was a potential partner, someone with whom he’d been very happy. (yuck, ew, ugh, ~~*) And I was able to NOT cry (somehow) and listen, and ask questions, and though we were both feeling really distant at the end (when we got cut off because he had to go do his shift at the food coop), I felt we were honest and got the ball rolling to be more honest in the future.
And he FINALLY admitted to understanding why I don’t ever want him to talk to her again (not to agree not to, mind you, but to see why, at least). And he also saw why his “friendship” with her was threatening to me, and it wasn’t just my insecurity (something on which he has always blamed my unwillingness to accept her as his “friend”), it was actually his ill behavior and his unfair treatment of both of us (SM and me), and a very clear pattern of going from one to the other and back again (which hitherto he has been unwilling to admit). Big steps. And I thanked him for talking to me about it.
Whew. We also talked about the potential of us NOT being together - because he seems lately to be at the MISERABLE end of commitment - and I said I didn’t want to move in together if it meant we were just roommates who happened to be the parents of the same child. I would need the freedom then to find my own way and look after myself. Of course he is terrified that that means I will run off with the baby and he won’t get to see her. (One of my options for taking care of myself is to move into my parents’ vacation house in the mountains until I can get on my feet.) And I certainly don’t want to threaten him in any way, I just need to take care of my needs and explore all my options.
I hear what he says and I see what he does, however, and though he says he is profoundly unhappy, he is still sticking in here and going to T and spending time with me and trying really hard. I know that means that he cares deeply about me, and he actually said the L word today (although it wasn’t an ILY). So I know what he says and what he does is disparate at the moment, and I can live with that. But I also have to hear what he is saying, and profound dissatisfaction and unhappiness is NOT where I want him to be, because that can grow (as we have seen) into infidelity, breaking up, and deep stress on his part, and I don’t want that, to be sure. I WANT him to be happy. And I want him to be happy with ME.
Our T on Friday asked us if we wanted all these things, if we were willing to make a statement to each other that each of us wants happy R components “X, Y, and Z with you.” And she said that if we weren’t able to say that to each other right now, it could change at any moment, but if the answer is no, definitely not with you, then let’s talk about that and work that out. And S. said it was hard for him to say the with you part at that moment because things were so tenuous and unhappy, and I said I couldn’t say anything at that moment. So there’s where we left it.
But this morning I told him that I wouldn’t be talking about any of this or going to T (remember, we are in T at his insistence) if I didn’t want to be with him, that I would be busy making arrangements for myself and the baby on my own. I said I wasn’t trying to force myself through the process just because he is the baby’s father, and that I did want things to work out with him. He gave me the equivalent of a lukewarmish “Me, too,” but it actually made me feel better to say that to him, whatever his response.
He still feels like I have no idea about the implications of bringing this baby into the world and the impact it will have on our lives. Whatever. I’m not on this earth to prove myself to him. He still thinks I’m this happy-go-lucky who thinks everything’s going to be OK no matter what. Well, I have to say, I DO think everything’s going to be OK no matter what, and that’s a profound difference between him and me: I am an unwavering optimist (who has made it in my life through scrappy hard work and doing what it took to get what I wanted) and he is a worry machine with the switch stuck on s-l-o-w. In my 19 years of post-parents experience, I’ve always landed on my feet, and I’ve always been able to take care of myself. Sure, I have no money to speak of and nothing really to call my own (except a violin that’s worth a nice house in most markets), but I’ve always made do with whatever I had, and I’m doing pretty darned well - out of debt and with a very successful career, having doubled my salary last year and on track to make another 25% more this year. My dad always says that when I really need it, I can squeeze money from a stone, and he’s right.
S. has always taken care of himself, too, but it was by careful planning and very conservative lifestyle that means he has virtually no experience out in the rest of the world. I’m not making a value judgment on him, but he surely makes one on me, that my choices are somehow inferior. Well, I wouldn’t trade my life and all my worldly experiences for a million-dollar house in New York City and nine lives’ worth of retirement in the bank. Really. If he gets run over by a truck tomorrow, he will have died without having done anything all that saving was supposed to be for. If I get run over by a truck tomorrow, I will have died rich and full, having lived one of my biggest life’s dreams. This is NOT to say that I think what he has done with his life is worthless. I simply respect his choices as much as I respect mine. We’ve talked a lot about the different kinds of capital: that he has monetary capital, whereas I have cultural capital. Who’s to say one is worth more than the other?
Back to what I (Jennifer) can do to CHANGE, we talked yesterday about our schedules and accountability, and he said during the course of that conversation that he felt like everything he does has to be cleared with me first (he said he needed to “ask my permission”). I resisted the idea mightily, but reached deep within myself and found that to be true. I pledged to myself to work on that, and I’ll be thinking of ways I can mitigate that feeling within him that he has to ask mommy before he can go out and play. Yu-uck! If he were doing that to me, I’d think he was a controlling freak, a “Sleeping with the Enemy”-type weirdo. So, am I ready to turn that back on myself? I don’t think so. I’d better shape up.
This morning, after he ran out of my place to shower and get ready for his shift at the coop, I got dressed and headed over to the 3rd-floor (empty) apartment to take care of the seedlings we planted for the garden in Vt. He showed up in a frenzy, thinking he had to get the screens (sun protectors for the delicate shoots) on the plants before he left, and found me there already doing it. I told him I’d take care of it and he ran off. He just now (2 hours later) called me from the coop to say it was nice to see me there taking care of the plants, and that it was great that I had thought to do it, and thank you. WOA from a man who “doesn’t need WOA from anybody.” He had said yesterday that he felt I wasn’t proactively doing things I say I’m interested in, and therefore he has a hard time believing I’m really interested in them. One example he used was that I never went up to check on the plants without him. (Well, he’s always there, so why would I need to?) Lesson #2: Do what I SAY, and don’t just pay lip service to my goals and wishes in life. Then I will be more trustworthy to the people of importance in my life.
I think a big part of this is a current lack of motivation, because everything in my life right now is tumultuous and scary... I see this with a lot of people on the BB, too. But I need to get myself motivated, and start DOING, even if I don’t feel like it, because this is what GAL is. Of course the brokenhearted, the scared, the freaked out, etc., don’t want to GAL, they want to mope around the house and hide and do nothing. BUT, as our T said about the M, V, & E thing, it’s like learning to ride a bike. It feels very awkward at first, and scary, and it takes a while to get your balance. Then it becomes second nature.
So, without further ado, I’m off to relearn how to ride a bike. Vroom!
You'll probably roll your eyes and hate me for saying this, but you really need God in your R. But the one thing I think I've learned in my conversion is that as hard as we may try, humans left to their own devices will eventually succumb to our own fallen nature. That is not to say we are bad--it is to say we are human.
There has to be something bigger than ourselves to give in a way that is so unnatural to us. A baby might do it--but a parent's love for a child is irrational and perhaps the only way you can achive a similar love for a spouse is with divine intervention or belief in something far greater than our own egos.
I don't envy you and admire your courage in going forward and bringing this child into the world, but it sure is tough to do it alone and S still has not crossed the Rubicon of what he is and wants to become. I'll say another prayer for you! Be good.
J - Reading your last post, I can't help thinking of the phrase "trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" - the sow's ear in this case being SO. (Maybe we should start calling him SE? ).
Now - don't misunderstand me, I know you are committed to making this silk purse, and with a child involved, I respect that decision. I think we just need to realize that it's a difficult undertaking, making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, one that will require extraordinary skill.
One thing I want you to hear - this is not about you. I'm sure you have your imperfections, and like many of us, could learn to loosen up about some things. But it is NOT controlling behavior for you to expect him to let you know where he is. People in a truly committed relationship do that out of respect for their partners. I've been married for almost 21 years, and I can't imagine my H going somewhere without telling me where he was going, and vice versa. SE has been yanking your chain for so long, you no longer trust your own instincts on what is right and proper behavior.
What you want is not extraordinary. You want a man who loves you, who is joyful about the child you have created together, who wants to protect and care for you, who is willing to put his all into the relationship and make a committment to be a faithful husband and a loving father. There's nothing wrong or controlling with wanting that.
You may be trying to get that from someone who is not capable of it - but I respect that you think he can grow into it. So - how does one go about making a silk purse out of a sow's ear?
Item number one - are you sure Swiss Miss is out of the picture? I only mention this because obviously all the therapy in the world won't make any progress if there is still a third party involved. Ordinarily snooping is not a good idea, but thisis one of those times when I think knowledge is power.
Item number two - what was SE's motivation in starting therapy? Was he hoping to fall back in love with you through therapy, or to "fix" what he thinks is wrong with you, or to learn to co-parent, or to let you down easy? (There's nothing wrong with you. btw - you are a beautiful, talented, loving, caring, adventurous girl, and it is HIS problem that he can't see what a gem he has.)
Item number three - what worked before? SE came back because he was afraid of losing you when you went dark, right? How can we use this now? We really want him to be at the birth, because that bonding experience will be very important to his future relationship with this child. Do you think, though, that starting to make alternate plans (like staying at your folks' vacation house) could be an effective form of "going dark"? Sometimes the indecisive can't decide what they want until they are about to lose it.
Item number four - do you think written communication might work better with SE?
Item number five - how are you doing on his love languages? Have you gotten him to read that book or at least discuss the ideas in it with you?
Item number six - SE clearly has some issues with depression - is there any way to adress this with him? (I know it's so hard when they think YOU are the reason for their bad moods!)
I guess my overall point is - you've set up a pretty big challenge for yourself, making this silk purse - so you need a very detailed, well-thought-out battle plan. Time to review what has worked, reread DR, set goals, and focus.
Thank you, Merrick, SD, and Ellie, for posting. Merrick, I appreciate, as always, your support. I did not roll my eyes and was not tempted to recreate the pukey icon in response. I think that smooth communication between two beings is godlike in a way, because it is so difficult, and when it works, it’s so much bigger than you, so powerful. And this is what we’re working on – understanding and being compassionate toward each other. SD, your question is answered below. We are both bloody miserable because we can’t seem to understand what the other is on about. I’d say this happens 89% of the time.
Ellie, thank you for these questions. They are helping me focus, and I appreciate the time it took to write them out.
are you sure Swiss Miss is out of the picture? Don’t worry, Ellie, I get an early morning edition of the Daily Snoop. Yes, I’m sure he hasn’t talked to her in months. He has e-mailed her twice since we got back together, and I know what he has said to her, and what she responded. Aside from not telling her we’re back together, it was all on the up and up. He won’t contact her again without talking to me about it, or at least that’s what we’ve agreed. I’m quite sure he won’t, because he won’t want to tell her he’s a dad unless he’s happy about it, and we aren’t there yet.
what was SE's motivation in starting therapy? He wants to be happy in our R, he wants to fix our communication problems, he wants to find a way to make this work, because in his mind we have all the elements there, they just aren’t working. He loves me, he thinks we have a million things in common, he WANTS it to work, he is adamant that he be a part of the child’s life no matter what happens to us, meaning, he ain’t goin’ nowhere, so we’d better straighten our R up. Of those things I am sure. We are both miserable (to answer your question, SD) because we can’t seem to communicate or understand each other. It’s gotten so bad that we break down almost every time we try to talk. So he wanted to go to T to work on our basic communication problems. He wants to be understood, and he wants to understand me.
Let me be clear: S. is trying really hard to understand me, and he’s trying really hard to do what I ask him for. It’s not anywhere close to a dynamic either of us can deal with, but he is trying. The things about asking my permission goes deeper than telling me where he is. It’s not that – I was being really controlling about “letting” him do anything without me. That’s where that permission thing came from. He’s really good about checking in and letting me know (now, not before). So that one little problem is OK now.
what worked before? SE came back because he was afraid of losing you when you went dark, right? How can we use this now? Well, I’m already considering spending a few weeks down there, so this will certainly be a short-term fix. I want to go anyway, to spend time with my family, not as a going-dark ploy, though it certainly would work that way. Another thing I’m doing is not accepting every invite to do something with his friends. I’ve jumped at most invites, and quite honestly, I don’t have time to go out right now.
do you think written communication might work better with SE? Not sure, and we see each other all the time, so I don’t know how this would work. It hasn’t really worked in the past – he read it and then forgets about it.
how are you doing on his love languages? Have you gotten him to read that book or at least discuss the ideas in it with you? Yes, he read it, no, we haven’t discussed it beyond agreeing to discuss it. Now that we’re in T, we’re struggling to keep up with our homework. I don’t want to re-introduce that book now. I can certainly work on his, the No. 1 of which is WOA, no matter how much he denies it. QT is another biggie for him, which is sadly lacking because we have so much trouble communicating. I need to find ways we can spend time without talking – watching a movie, etc. And as far as my LL, he recently brought me flowers, to thank me for a difficult T session. It was only the second time he’s EVER brought me flowers, and he even wrote me a note and left them for me to find when I was gone all day last week. So the amphibian grows nubs that might turn into legs one day. Maybe, just maybe, he’ll try his luck on land one day.
SE clearly has some issues with depression - is there any way to address this with him? I don’t know that this is the case. Please elaborate.
By the way, I couldn’t get rid of S. if I wanted to (and believe me, the thought has crossed my mind a number of times in recent weeks). He is sticking in, come hell or high water. And if we end up as “the parents of Janie Doe” rather than “the family,” then I have to accept that. He’s not going anywhere, of that I am sure.
Quote: SE clearly has some issues with depression - is there any way to address this with him? I don’t know that this is the case. Please elaborate.
Quote: though he says he is profoundly unhappy, he is still sticking in here
Well - that's your first clue - he says he's "profoundly unhappy". And just why should he be "profoundly unhappY"? He's got a beautiful, intelligent woman who knows his flaws but loves him anyway, has forgiven him his affair, loves him so much she has posted daily on this board for forever in an attempt to improve herself and the relationship. He's having a child with this same wonderful woman - a miracle and a blessing. He owns property and is financially stable. His overwhelming problems that are making him so unhappy are....what, exactly? I'm voting for serotonin deficiency, myself. The irritability, the blaming others for his moods, the finger-pointing at relatively minor behaviors on your part as the excuse for his inability to commit, the lack of empathy for your concerns - just the struggle to be happy when, in reality, his life is pretty darned good! I recognize it all because this is how my H was too before he got treated for his depression.
Quote: Another thing I’m doing is not accepting every invite to do something with his friends.
Quote: QT is another biggie for him, which is sadly lacking
If QT is his love language, then you'd better keep accepting those invitations, no matter how inconvenient. Also - no multitasking when he's around, give him your full attention when he speaks, sit next to him, etc.
Quote: We are both miserable because we can’t seem to communicate or understand each other. It’s gotten so bad that we break down almost every time we try to talk.
So, quit talking and start breathing and smiling. You need to be flooding your body with happy hormones. It's not good for babies to have all the stress and unhappy hormones.
Circumstances can be a challenge, but YOU decide your mood. (I think I've related how peeved I was when I heard research to that effect on the radio years ago.) Happy people are that way regardless of the circumstances. Ditto with unhappy people.
Lead the way. S may or may not follow suit, but that's okay. You will be happier.
And relating your own experience can be done like I showed above - by using the generic "you" to refer to "one," as in, "One thinks one has a good experience, but..."
:
~~*) And I was able to NOT cry (somehow) and listen, and ask questions, and though we were both feeling really distant at the end (when we got cut off because he had to go do his shift at the food coop), I felt we were honest and got the ball rolling to be more honest in the future. 
).