Quote: BTW, it feels more to me like this is true in M's where the H is the HD. I don't know if it would apply to your sitch or not. What do you think?
Extremely doubtful. I can literally count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've turned down sex with someone I'm actively sexually involved except in instances of extreme illness, previous appointments etc. I can remember at least a couple occasion when a guy who I was no longer seeing for good reasons was able to wheedle his way back into bed with me with a bit of sweet talk and a few smooth moves. I'm about as round-heeled as possible. I "get" the Siamese Twin stuff but it doesn't apply to me.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
JJ, I wasn't talking so much about you turning down sex... I was thinking more of a long-term R where the guy was really in the driver's seat: you do it when he wants to, the way he wants to, for as long as he wants to. Not that you aren't consulted, but that HE drives it and you are more often the responder than the initiator. I wonder what that would feel like to you-- to be the passerger all (or most) of the time, and not the driver.
I think some of the HD guys on this board are wishing their wives would be more enthusiastic partners, but I doubt if there would be universal cheers if these wives took over the role of primary initiator.
Just food for thought.
DL wrote
Quote: The fact that he is experiencing performance problems and anxieties magnifies the issues. I think it makes it more necessary (in his mind) that everything be done according to his schedule. And maybe at the moment he is right - that he needs to feel so turned on or he may have ED. If I approach him and try to seduce him, then that may feel like pressure which contributes to ED.
This is the sitch here. After he had the heart surgery and the job lay-off and stopped drinking, he let me know that I needed to back way off. That my initiating felt to him like pressure, and he had way too much on his plate. So I backed off.
Quote: JJ, I wasn't talking so much about you turning down sex... I was thinking more of a long-term R where the guy was really in the driver's seat: you do it when he wants to, the way he wants to, for as long as he wants to. Not that you aren't consulted, but that HE drives it and you are more often the responder than the initiator. I wonder what that would feel like to you-- to be the passerger all (or most) of the time, and not the driver.
Pardon the food analogy but this is the equivalent of asking me if I would lose my appetite if my H insisted on cooking dinner every night and didn't consult me about the menu. The fact of the matter is I am not a picky eater so unless he was a really lousy cook or only knew how to make two dishes it really wouldn't bother me a bit to only be responsible for cooking Sunday brunch though I guess I would balk at being absolutely banned from the kitchen. I would pull my chair up to the table, tuck my napkin under my chin and look forward to gobbling up whatever he was serving.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: we got into a row before I left for work about what to have for dinner - he said he was so depressed he wanted pizza, I said I want us to eat more nutritious meals, he said I'm "like the diet-police ALWAYS nagging and criticizing him, ALWAYS asking if he's had fruits and vegs for lunch" (he has high BP and the meds may contribute to his ED; our son has high BP but has had very good results with a high fruit/vegetable low salt "DASH" diet).
Don't volunteer or elect yourself in this role. No good comes from it. He is a grown man and capable of making his own food choices. Let him have his pizza and you have your healthier meal. He knows what you think and how you feel about the issue. If you're not sure that he does know, my suggestion would be to tell him in detail that you're concern isn't about controlling his food choices as much as it is wanting to insure his health so that you and he can live a long, healthier life together. And now that he knows your heart in this matter, you will no longer police it.
Quote: Anyway, I'm glad that others are making some progress but personally it all seems so hard and complicated right now - a lot more than "just do it".
Our progress was measured in years, not months. It included a few steps forward and several spectacular crashes backwards.
What you will discover is that the HD/LD issues have managed to distract from other ongoing issues in your relationship. I'm not saying the sexual drive issue isn't an important one and must be addressed. I am saying that as long as it wasn't addressed, it took a lot of blame and/or focus of anger & discontent in the relationship. If hubby was unhappy in the relationship, then it is/was easy to place the focus on *you*, because you weren't the sexual partner he wanted/needed/envisioned. Now that you're stepping up to the plate, it's not quite so easy to focus that discontent on you.
Thank you, thank you! You all have sensible things to say. I think the seesaw analogy and perhaps the one about readjusting to who's in the driver's seat may apply.
I don't think my H has really become LD but I think he is depressed, partly about several RL issues, partly about stress in our R, and partly about ED. When a woman has an inability to O it seems it may have less of an impact on the R - women can even fake it though it's not recommended. But when a man can't achieve O it's right out there for all to see, a limp noodle. Now frankly it doesn't bother me at all, and I told him so, except insofar as it bothers him. I don't reach O via IC. But it makes him feel terrible, like a failure as a lover, like a flop as a man, and anxious about even trying to ML.
But fortunately "the kids are gone and the dog has died" so we can go to bed in the middle of a Saturday afternoon. And even though he couldn't make it all the way we both felt better. (Of course the planned house-and-yardwork didn't get done, but I think if we both feel better we'll both have more energy to attack the clutter, laundry and yard work.)
And I think you are right that changing the dynamics of the sexual R changes the dynamics of the R and puts some of the focus onto other aspects of the R which may have been obscured by arguing about and blaming insufficient sex.
Doglover
MrsNOP wrote:
Quote:
Our progress was measured in years, not months. It included a few steps forward and several spectacular crashes backwards.
What you will discover is that the HD/LD issues have managed to distract from other ongoing issues in your relationship. I'm not saying the sexual drive issue isn't an important one and must be addressed. I am saying that as long as it wasn't addressed, it took a lot of blame and/or focus of anger & discontent in the relationship. If hubby was unhappy in the relationship, then it is/was easy to place the focus on *you*, because you weren't the sexual partner he wanted/needed/envisioned. Now that you're stepping up to the plate, it's not quite so easy to focus that discontent on you.
It takes some adjustment.
MrsNOP -
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
Welcome to my world of patience and perseverance. When I finally resurrected my sex drive, I erroneously thought my H would be thrilled...as you can see from my many posts, he made it clear he was not operating on my timetable. H had anger and resentment towards me and his own LD issues. He felt pressure from me and I felt controlled ( I guess the reverse was true yrs ago).
What started as a personal journey ( my sexuality) led to a desire to improve my marriage and showed me just how committed I am to this man. I am proud of the fact that we now have a regular sex life, but it's not without its share of frustration. We have found that the best way to keep things going is to ML on a schedule...I've traded natural spontaneity for consistency, and it's really nice when we can meet each other's expectations. We're slowly getting to a point of joking over the whole thing...my H found some desire at 5:00 this morning and made sure to let me know it counted for Saturday. What I like about the schedule is that my H is too LD for me to seduce him, so ML was under his control, and I was too HD to handle not knowing when he'd come through.
Posting here on the board and reading about everyone's situations really gets me thinking and working on my sexuality, communication, and the marriage...recently I have been more selfish about O'ing, due to some comments on the board...yaaaayay.
Good luck at the MC...we did that for a few months and it was helpful...we mostly discussed relationship stuff...too reserved to discuss the sexual...ah well.
I see from various people's posts that although at any given time it may be quite clear who is the LD and who is the HD spouse in an R, it can also change over time. I still believe that I am probably the more LD spouse in our M but motivation to improve the situation (on my part) and fatigue and some depression (on MrDoglover's part) can from time to time flip those roles. It gives both of us more understanding into each other - I see how hard it was for him to feel rebuffed by experiencing it myself; and I try to assure him that his own "performance" failures are just temporary setbacks. Fortunately he is happy to see and help me enjoy myself. I am committed to achieving greater pleasure myself - I think that will help me "stay with the program".
The only thing is that all this attention to our R means we have less time or interest for some community events or people who just aren't as important to us as working on our R, but we can't really tell people "we're not going to such and such because we're going to bed Sat afternoon." Or when someone asks "so what's new, what have you been up to recently?" it's hard to answer that one honestly.
It's not like it's all we're doing, but paying attention to one's R does take mental and emotional energy.
To all of you out there in cyberspace, as a friend of mine says "KUTGW!" (keep up the good work).
Doglover
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
IHJ, Being somewhat new on the BB I sometimes get people's stories confused. I went back to the main index and saw your thread (which I had read before) on Michele's DVDs. NOW I remember who you are! The DVDs sound good - MrDoglover is not much for reading R books. Doglover
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
Quote: we can't really tell people "we're not going to such and such because we're going to bed Sat afternoon."
Miss Manners says you don't have to give a reason for turning down an invitation. All you have to say is, "We have other plans." If they press you, "What kind of plans?" just deflect it with, "Another time we'd love to (whatever)."
Miss Manners also says that when people ask, "What have you been up to?" and you don't care to go into detail, all you have to do is deflect again with, "Not much... Anyway, I'm more interested in what's been going on with you." People find that a pretty charming response.
We had our first session with MC (who does couples therapy dealing with both relationship and sexual issues) on Monday and returned feeling hopeful. After listening to us, she wants to work on R issues first. She was very reassuring that many couples have a desire discrepancy and problems being in sync as far as time of day goes, and that these are not unsolvable problems. (Of course it's good for her business to say things which motivate us to come back, but still, though we each expressed strong feelings - anger, hurt, etc - we both felt encouraged when done).
She recommended the book: "Women Who Love Sex: An Inquiry into the Expanding Spirit of Women's Erotic Experience" Amazon link by Gina Ogden, (a psychotherapist who is on the AASECT list). She said many people find the book both validating and uplifting. So we have ordered it.
She does not want to start by focusing on techniques or strictly genital sex. She seems to have a more holistic view of improving the emotional R and increasing the general sensuality of the physical R before dealing with specific sexual issues.
We will see her next week, but we didn't really establish what she thinks the timeframe might be in terms of number of sessions.
Doglover
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
He is a grown man and capable of making his own food choices. Let him have his pizza and you have your healthier meal. He knows what you think and how you feel about the issue. If you're not sure that he does know, my suggestion would be to tell him in detail that you're concern isn't about controlling his food choices as much as it is wanting to insure his health so that you and he can live a long, healthier life together. And now that he knows your heart in this matter, you will no longer police it. 