Quote: I am okay but having to re-evaluate whether I still want my H.
I suppose most people go through something like this. We ask ourself "Will SO change enough? Will I change enough? Is the old R is over. What do I/SO need in a new R? What is working? What is not working? And a lot more.
Anyway, happy birthday Jo. I will have icecream to day in your honor and hope your girls and Andy are thinking well of you today.
Still not quite ready to discuss it, but French Kitty asked me a question on this thread that I never answered because I was upset, and I wanted to write down my GAL work in order to help with PMA.
French Kitty - The law in the UK around child custody is as follows:
1. All birth mothers and adoptive mothers have automatic PR (Parental Responsibility) which means they are entitled to raise their kids, direct their education etc etc.
2. Only married fathers have PR - therefore unmarried fathers have no parental rights over their children and could not even sign a dental form. Mother would be needed for all consent issues. If the unmarried couple separate, the children go to the mother and father cannot go for custody of them.
3. Unmarried fathers whose partner's sign a parental responsibility agreement can claim PR but it has to be with the mother's consent, and if she says no, he would have to challenge her in court for his PR. A lot of fathers lose unless they can prove they have been heavily involved in the child's life from day 1 or they have been the primary caretaker.
4. Unmarried fathers with children born after 2002 who attend the register office with the child's mother and who sign the birth certificate, can obtain PR.
5. If the mother goes and registers baby's birth without father's presence, he does not have any PR rights over the child.
6. Fathers who are married to the mother have full PR from the day of marriage even if the children were born before the marriage. He also has full PR of any children born during the marriage which means he has equal rights to the mother. If they divorce, he still has that PR due to the fact that he used to be married to the mother.
I am unsure of the law relating to children concieved by mother and father AFTER divorce and may well look into this myself.
All mothers and married fathers have PR and this means that if they want, they can move the child anywhere in the UK WITHOUT the other parent's consent as this is not considered illegal. It is only illegal if you take the child to a foreign country.
This is what happened with Andy and I, as he took them without my consent and because I married him, the police would not get the children back for me. If he had been my boyfriend, I would still have custody as he could not have taken them from me. This could happen to anyone, regardless of depression.
Also, any court orders that are made in relation to child custody and contact, are CIVIL orders which means they are not criminally enforceable so you can break them without going to prison, which is also what Andy did.
So in essence, his court orders states the 3 older children should reside with him. But that's all it states. I still have full PR, i.e, the right to raise, spend time with, direct the education and medical care of my children.
The trouble is, the children's act assumes that the custodial parent will be reasonable and allow the other parent to exercise these righta. In truth, most separated parents with custody, do not allow their ex's to partake in the child's upbringing or education - so to all intents and purposes, my PR is useless.
I have read the legal documents in relation to PR, and in my sitch, with Andy not wanting any of my involvement with the kids, I can only exercise 1 of my PR rights. There is nothing in the law I can do to make him give me my rights, and I don't even know the name of my children's doctor.
They have something called mediation here, which is discussing with a counsellor the involvement which both parents will have with the child, but this is voluntary and when I was offered it, Andy said he wouldn't budge on what he was prepared to offer me, so I didn't see the point in going to mediation just to argue in front of the counsellor. I therefore turned him down.
If I cannot do something about this R, then I have come to the decision that I shall just not try to be a part of their lives until there comes a time when they are older and he no longer controls everything.
I feel he uses them as a control over me and I will not bow to this pressure.
I have spoken to some friends who went through all the court stuff with me, and they say that if I cannot make this R work, my kids would understand when they are older. They might even dislike him for not allowing me to be the mother I want to be for them.
I feel like I have done everything I can think of doing to fight for my kids and there's nothing left to do.
Ineffectual mother and victim is not something I intend to be.
2. Started going to Lunchtime, Playtime every week with dd4
3. Finished my newsletters.
4. Finished writing up trial for my book.
5. Bought something to help with my disability which makes life a bit easier.
6. Friend is buying me a web design course for my birthday so I am going to learn how to re-do my own web without asking H for help.
7. I have signed up for egg donation which will start on day 2 of my next period.
8. I have signed on to a new scheme to help small businesses and they are helping me develop my work. They are also helping me to find a new counselling job. I spoke to my advisor today and will be going in regularly for his help.
9. Bought a new beauty treatment for my feet.
10. Sexy lingerie and DVD has arrived - I have no plans wearing it yet but am watching DVD to get tips on how to be a great lover. This is useful whether you D or not.
Jo, After reading your posts, I have long felt that Andy was using your girls to control you. And I totally agree that they will figure this out eventually. Is there an age where you live, that the girls can decide for themselves who they want to live with? In Michigan I think it is 12.
I'm glad that your are looking to make some changes to R with Andy. I truly don't feel that you can respect yourself or that anyone else can respect you if you just go with the flow and that is against what you believe. Doing that is poisonous and eventually you will hate yourself and resent him for it.
I wish you the best of luck and and my heart tells me that you deserve better than what Andy is able to offer you at the moment. That doesn't mean that he can't eventually be what you need, but he needs to do some changing. This needs to "finally" be on "your" terms, not his.
No offence taken at all, I agree with you and have always known he uses those kids to keep me - I believe that is the reason he took them, he couldn't let go of me. My eldest looks exactly like me. I have often joked with him, it's like having a mini Jo with him and he laughed and said yes.
Half the time he doesn't even realise he's doing it and when he does, he's not prepared to alter his behaviour.
I don't know what the cut off age is. My lawyer told me once they get to about 13, Andy couldn't stop them if they decided when they wanted to visit me.
I don't fear letting them go because I don't want them to suffer any longer and I know missing me would be nothing compared to the conflict they have been put through and I know eventually they will be back on my doorstep. Even if they hate me to start with, once they hear what happened, they won't. I didn't leave them on purpose.
As for Andy, I agree I need more. Something happened after my last installment. I shall write it tomorrow, and I just know that now is the time to get tough. No more doormat. I won't be there forever. I only promised forever if he was my H.
Well here is my installment that I have been angry about and couldn't write.
Right after I'd written my last update on the very same night, I got an email from H, stating that he knew that this R wasn't what I wanted and that he could see I was just agreeing with him on stuff to do with the kids just for the sake of keeping the peace and that his views on things were different to mine.
He described his attitude as 'rigid and inflexible' yet was not prepared to change this behaviour or even acknowledge that people do have different opinions all the time.
What he wants from a woman is for her to just agree with everything he says. His email was in response to me saying dd1 couldn't have pierced ears.
I am very sad for him that he wants 100% agreement on everything and cannot and will not compromise or let me mother our children at all. He does not acknowledge that they are mine apart from in terms of my legally allowed contact.
He then said some BS about how the angels have told him he is moving away from his path (BIG BIG ego problem here).
He will never find anyone who is willing to agree with everything he says and shutup and be a yes wife, which is what he wants.
I am sad that he can't see that differing opinions enrich life and differing personalities balance each other out and make life interesting. I am sad that he is so closed off to different ways of thinking, that he won't even discuss it with others.
He thinks he is becoming enlightened, but he is only moving further away from God by insisting that his way is the only way and closing his heart to all the other souls in the world.
He knows he does it but isn't prepared to change, like an alcoholic who refuses to give up the booze.
I can't do anything with this R and not even with my kids like this. So I am stepping back.
Even post-D, it seems like there is a rollercoaster nature to DBing. You and H are definitely experiencing a rough patch. I am sorry that you have to go thru this.
Jo, did H own his 'rigid and inflexible' manner happily, or did he seem to be criticizing himself? It would be so sad to see him throw away a priceless R with you over a little child's right to wear earrings! Doesn't the guy see that there are bigger battles to consider.
He needs to lovingly and detachedly be humbled - ground to a meek, but eye-opened pile of humanity - so as to get rid of this false pride and fear that keeps him in this nonsensical control mode. Not humbled by Jo, mind you, but by life. Christians call this process 'conviction' - to be convinced that life can rather suck without a very key relationship - that with God.
There is no direct effort by others needed to help this lesson along. Merely living life with a vacuum of space where love used to be is enough for the lesson to occur. You might imagine him needing to see that he cannot exist, happily let alone healthily, as an island. And dictators always become paranoid islands amidst the sea of possible human connections around them.
In your sitch, since he jumped into the R with OW, and is still 'living' with her, it may very well be that he is still waiting to START his own work, let alone be ready to pick up and begin a wonderful new R with you. He clearly saw that that superficial, sex-based R with OW was not damping his isolation. Using your DDs as the carrot, he came back to you to see if he could draw you to his island to feed him with your love. He doesn't seem to know yet what love is (un-controlling for one), and doesn't see why you should be unhappy as the dictator's concubine on his remote island.
You are right to back away from him and to watch. But Jo, don't back away from your girls. If you do so, you've just handed him the power in the R again. Hold up a mirror for him to better see his humbleness. More importantly, let your DDs see what a woman is and what she is not. They desparately need you as a role model right now, and he will warp their budding sense of self with his current mindset about Rs and women. Act 'as-if' with him regarding the DDs, that of course he'll let the kids have an afternoon with you, of course he'll bring them over if you want to do an outing with them. Waiting him out is a solid idea, but IMHO your DDs have been punished enough by him via your absence. You'll be feed by their presence in your life, too, Jo.
H and kids came round. H was sulking in the car. DD1 came to the door struggling to carry my printer that she was returning. I asked her why her father wasn't carrying it. She said he was waiting in the car.
I lost my temper, ran outside and asked him what was he playing at getting a 9 year old to carry heavy stuff for him just because he's too chicken [censored] to face me.
He didn't respond. They went home. I rang EX-OW in tears and told her to tell him to stop using our dd as a pack horse and messenger girl. It's always the kids that end up caught up in the centre of our arguments.
Talked to EX-OW for maybe 2 hours. Apparently he told her a load of stuff which wasn't true and he has done the same with me. We swapped notes and I discovered I obviously can't believe a word he says.
She is with Mr. P, yes, but she has no intention of moving out yet, and there was a load of other stuff I told her which apparently is completely different to the story he told her.
I was in tears for the whole conversation. He had even forgotten my birthday, no less. I reminded EX-OW. It's a good job I am going to my friend's house tomorrow. She said why don't you have the kids - my birthday is day 1 of the IVF phase at the egg donation clinic. I have to go and speak to the dr and get stuck with needles which contain folical stimulating drugs, so that is out.
I am actually ectastic that this is happening on my birthday, genuinely.
Anyway, my newsletters finally got here from the printers and I discovered that some prat has folded them wrong so I have to unpick the staples from literally hundreds of these newsletters and I can't believe it.
I sat in tears for most of the afternoon.
Then I fell asleep. DD's woke me up and brought round these home made cards. I looked at the cards, told them they could have a biscuit and then took them back to the car. Commented to H that he forgot my birthday. He denied it and said he didn't forget.
He asked why they couldn't stay and we got into this fight about how he's always lying to me and he walks all over me as a mother and never lets me do F all unless he says so and now I've had it, this is it, the end, no more, ever, caput for the whole family. If I have to go through another second of this non-custodial [censored] I will have a breakdown and then they'll move in on dd4.
This was all said outside in the street in front of my neighbours
He said
'You never told me about the IVF'
I said
'I was going to, then this happened.'
Then I told him not to come round again. He (and they) need time on their own completely without EX-OW. He needs to quit lying, I need my mothering rights. Still keeping up the contact means bowing to whatever he says with them, which puts me in his control.
When I'm not in contact, he can't have any power over me, not even through them.
To be honest, I'm not sure if I want him back now since I have found this out. I sent them back to the car, told him to go. He made some comment about how my birthday is for them. I said no, it's for me, and that's the whole trouble. For 11 years I have lost myself in this family, been dragged through the mud, disrespected and put down and now, damn it, my birthday is MY birthday just because I want to enjoy it and not because I ought to celebrate for somebody else!
They drove away and I sat on the step in tears. Then I went in, looked at their cards again and cried even more. I put them away - could not bear to look at them, esp. the note my dd1 wrote for me.
Tomorrow morning (my 28th birthday) I am going to the IVF clinic for injections, then I am going to my friend's house where I will try to forget about all of this.
A wise person once gave me this advice about whether my sense of doing most of the R work was "fair":
Quote: You are DB'ing, not her. She is the WAW, therefore if you want to save your R, it will be you doing most of the work. That is tough but true. It is no sense in thinking what you're 'entitled' to as the last poster said. Being 'entitled' never got anyone anywhere. For a long time my WAH hated me to death. He couldn't give a monkey's about the R. I had to do all the work to get where I am now and it's only been very recently he's started giving anything back. Even now I would say I do 80% of the R work. And it's worth it for the 20% I get back.
Jo, for what its worth, I do see him trying. Yes, he's insecure. Yes, he won't face you in an adult fashion and waits in the car rather than try to work things out at that moment. Yes, he's telling different stories to you and Ex-OW. But he's still showing up with the girls on your BDay. He's still remembering small commitments like bringing your printer over. To me that communicates some interest and minimal effort. My BDay is in early June, and if my W would drive S5 over to my place (she still has not even seen my studio) or orchestrated card/letter making by him, I'd be bowled over with pleasant shock.
Is it just me, or is there something else? I still don't see what pulled the trigger on your upset. Was it his lurking on the BB and reading about your egg donation? I also don't understand why you'd put the girls' cards away. These are gifts of love from your daughters - why not celebrate and be nurtured by their love for you? THEY were definitely respecting you as a mother, and focusing on you as the special person on your BDay. Let them love you, Jo. And don't be afraid of loving them in return, staying fully vulnerable to them. This is the place in which H has absolutely no power. Your Rs with your DDs are between you and your DDs. Its already been proven - H can't break you apart. If you would Jo, what did your D1 tell you?
Try hard to not let things play out in front of the kids, Jo. Have the kids stay inside, then rip him a new A-h@le in private if you must, but not with them as your audience.
Did you tell him those things: that he needed time alone with the girls, not with OW, and about the lying, and respecting you as a mother? How did he respond?
Lastly, I wonder if the egg donation is bringing up a very painful, R-damaging time for each of you, in different ways. For you this may be part healing, but I wonder how it is striking him (looking beyond the mere control theme).
He's not trying. He's given up, hence his email saying he didn't want to try on the R anymore because I don't agree with everything he says.
Of course my invites to the ballet will not happen now, nor anything else UNLESS HE SAYS SO, which is the point.
He did forget my birthday (TOMORROW), they all did, not just him. The younger ones I know wouldn't know, but dd1 is supposed to remember my birthday. She didn't mention it when she came.
The only reason they realised is because I was complaining to EX-OW that it was my birthday tomorrow and they were supposed to be staying over and now he's done this, my plans are up the spout. I was so upset I arranged to go to a friend, and he's so busy being angry he didn't even remember.
She (dd1) came with flowers and stuff when they brought Alicia back. They wouldn't have if I hadn't mentioned it to EX-OW.
The only reason he drives to mine is because he moved to another town after we split up (he doesn't live in Nottingham). He said at the time the reason he moved was to keep me away from him and the girls.
I have no car, have difficulty walking (cannot walk outside at all without walking aid or holding onto walls etc) and for me to go fetch her from his house would mean 4 taxi's, and 2 buses each journey which would take a substantial portion of my day and cost me loads of money (more than I can afford). Therefore, I told him from the outset that I would not bring Alicia to him. I told him since he moved to that town to keep me at a distance, he could come collect her.
I stated I would do transportation if he moved back to my home town.
Therefore I don't think him coming to my house was anything to get excited over. He does to pick up Alicia etc. That was the reason he was here today.
I don't get it either, Gabriel, but then he is like this. He ended our M in the same fashion. We didn't fight as such, we were overworked but we got on the majority of our M, then one evening he turns around and gives me the bomb - that was after he ASKED me to get pg. Hence Alicia being born after separation.
He has always been like that. When we split up after our baby died, his leaving was sudden then too. There is never any warning or anything that I do to make him do that. I mean, he told me he loved me a few weeks ago and now this. But it is in character for him, at least.
I was already massively upset before he came to get Alicia because of his email basically giing me the brush off after four and a half months of effort, and 2 and a half years of hell before that, and I've not been eating correctly and drinking loads of coffee (too much), period is here again and we had so many plans for my birthday (he and they were supposed to be sleeping overnight for the first time, I thought they might do something nice for me - it was supposed to be a turning point and now this). I simply cannot believe he couldn't have waited until AFTER my birthday.
I was in tears for about 3 hours before he even turned up, didn't do any work even though I'm supposed to and fell asleep from too much crying. I really did not want to see him today at all but had to because of child contact.
H is not bothered about the egg donation, he just likes to keep tabs on my life and wonders when he hears something about me that I haven't told him myself.
Re the pictures, when you go through a custody battle, it takes years, your mothering skills are up on stand, you are encouraged to fight with your ex. All we did from when they were 5 and 4, was fight. He took them and disappeared. He barred all access. I couldn't find them for over a month and even when I did, he still barred my access.
He would snatch the kids by force and even took the baby when she was 3 weeks old, leaving me distraught. I had to beg him to return her, which he only did because she was breast fed. This occured continously for about a year.
You imagine what that does to your ability to bond with your children. I was just scared for the majority of her babyhood and would say I missed out on my other dd's from that time.
We even ran away to another town briefly to get away because he kept breaking my court orders. I would try to be a family, then he'd snatch again and I'd be hysterical and with the police round etc. During the times when he took them, I found their photographs too distressing so I took down all the photos in the house and tried to blot them out of my mind.
I just carried on with this mental conditioning to protect myself from what he was doing. I had custody off dd3 also and he snatched her. By the time it went to court, she'd been there so long they didn't move her.
Going through all this made me die in a spiritual way. The judge only stopped him snatching when he threatened to sentance him to prison. He has never done it again, since that day.
My R with them was virtually non-existent by then, and dd2 ended up in therapy with a child C.
I had a small victory when I decorated this house last year, I was able to put up their wall portraits for the first time in ages. Their photos no longer have me sobbing like they used to, but I still get massively upset at their pictures - esp. when dd1 writes to me. It brings up grief over 'losing' my family and as yet I have not managed to overcome these feelings.
She sent me an email the other day and when I saw it was her name, my heart nearly raced out of my chest. I thought something was wrong and that's why she was writing. It was so nice to read it and realise there was no problem.
I feel in this stressed state when round them, left over from all the above, that I have trouble getting over.
DD1's note said she hoped I was okay (i.e, not depressed - she is aware I was and is aware when I get down) and that she hoped I had a happy birthday and that she'd done me a card and a picture which her dad said was nice. Oh, and that she thought I was the best mum in the world.
Except I'm not. Very lovely but not true, she deserves better than the emotional baggage that I am. I try my hardest to stay together but I really don't cut it.
I thanked her for the cards but was too upset to have them there. When I get this down I cry in front of her, and I'd rather she didn't see me when I'm in that mood. It isn't healthy.
I agree we shouldn't argue in front of them. The first time when I told him off for getting her to carry the printer, they were all in the house. Second time, they witnessed it.
It was partly why I walked away the last time, because they have seen this from when they were so little and it isn't fair to have 2 parents in constant conflict. A single parent family is nicer than 2 separated, feuding parents.
I felt developing the R was the only way we wouldn't fight over them so when he came back into my life I was doing it as much for them as him.
Now I am totally off-course, he's not remotely interested and I haven't the faintest clue what to do.
I'm so tired of my sitch and whenever I have a victory, it just goes back 3 steps. I mean, he said ILY and now this.
I feel like I'm in total crisis at the moment which is why I didn't want to post.
