You've been at this caper a lot longer than me. Quite honestly I think you're brillinat and deserve a medal. Undoubtedly I don't deserve a medal. But, and I know that I've said this before, your h is very similar to my h. By that I mean your h is selfish! He thinks of himself and no one else. Although he does put up a good pretence of thinking of others, he doesn't, not really.
Like me you're very good at predicting what your h is going to do next. I use that to think out, plan and practice what I will say to him. Now, I remember you saying, in the past, that you were going to say no to his lunch time invitations. I think it was sometime after Christmas. Remember when he always seemed to invite himself to lunch at your place? So that involved you buying and preparing the food. But really these coffee shop lunch breaks don't seem to be working out....especially if you have to pay!
But there are lots of other issues with your h that you are not happy with. At the end of the day you have to decide yourself what you are most comfortable with and what approach to use. You have to stamp your own personailty on whatever it is you decide.
I know with my h, who does suffer from a diagnosed personality disorder, he can't cope with "flowery speech". What he does with that is pick out the bits that he wants to hear and ignores the bits that he doesn't want to hear. So what I'm trying to say here is if I want to say no to my h that is what I say. I say no. Oh and I say thank you. Or I might strengthen that by saying something like No I don't want to do that thank you. But really the fewer words you use the better.
Can you see what I'm trying to say here Liv? The key is you decide what you want, then plan what you're going to say, and then practice it. And believe me you will have to practice it.
Also set your ground rules. For example, I find it very difficult to talk to my h on the telephone. So I don't do that. I've told him that I won't talk to him on the telephone and I stick to it. If he calls me I say I'm not prepared to talk to you on the phone. He has the choice then....he can write to me or he can meet me face to face. Again you have to decide what you want. My h never writes to me, we always meet face to face. Usually at my house or a coffee shop. If it is in a coffee shop he pays for his while I pay for mine. You have to find what you're comfortable with Liv. Just some ideas.
Oh and just some thoughts on the summer. You're talking about your h having your d for the whole of the month of August. Now, are you going away for the whole of the month yourself? The reason I ask is it seems to me that you think it unlikely that your h will have your d for the whole of the month. So, you need to decide what you would like if it doesn't happen. When do you really want to be on your own without your d?
Mojo, yesterday I considered 'letting' H pay for our drinks (and he had chosen to meet in a place where the drinks cost more than normal) but in the end I thought paying for the drinks was WORTH it to get away from him decisively! You know?
I think your suggestion of simply saying "No thank you" is rather good! No explanations and frills. Why bother? I simply don't wish to do something with H, so I won't! He has NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO trouble doing that to me!
I was reading that Narcissists usually pick (or to put it another way, they get away with suckering) people with a well developed (over developed?) sense of responsibility and wanting things to be kept 'nice'. So while they get away with murder, there we are bending over backwards to accomodate them and smooth things over. And while they don't have a sense of guilt, they manage to arouse our sense of guilt to the hilt and milk it to the max.
By the way, Mojo, your reference to this "caper" made me laugh!
As to deserving a medal and all that, I don't feel at all deserving of anything such thing. I feel tied up in knots and pathetic.
Just yesterday, my friend at the pool talked about my "obvious" potential. I have heard this all my life. I seem to have enormous "potential" which is somehow almost completely untapped. Right now my energy is being sapped by this "caper". Time to exit the caper and get on with MY life!
One problem is that in this country I think you have to be legally separated for three years before you can divorce. I would have to be resident in the other country to get a divorce there as we were married in other country. So I either have to wait another couple of years or move residence. Still don't know what is for the best on that front. And whether staying in this country is in my best interests, and that of D.
Quote: Can you see what I'm trying to say here Liv? The key is you decide what you want, then plan what you're going to say, and then practice it. And believe me you will have to practice it.
I think that is the key. I just have to be clear about what exactly it is I want now.
I think I will let H know that I will only communicate with him about visitation and money etc by email. This way I get time to consider what he says before responding, there is also a written record, and I don't get caught out and put in a funk during times when I need to concentrate on other things like lessons or social evenings at my home. All contact with H seems to work like pollution in my life. I want it to be "contained".
As for the whole month of August, etc. I can sense that H would prefer to sabotage my plan to have a whole month off somehwere, you know? On the other hand, the neighbour's children are up there for seven weeks, so it would be easy on him, as D will have friends to play with all day. Seeing as H has his "rights" with regard to D, I intend to make sure he avails of them!
This is not going to be easy. As soon as I lay down ground rules like only communicating by email, H will up the ante for sure and become aggressive. But perhaps I shouldn't borrow trouble???
Let's see.
Ok, we're off for a cycle ride today on D's new bike.
Have a nice Sunday all!
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
There were other things I wanted to say in my last post but i didn't. But anyway I'll have a go.
Yes these people with problems do pick a certain sort of person to marry. They have to because no one else would put up with their cr*p. We tend to be patient people. We tend to be people who stay calm. We're caring and will also analyse what has happened and try to make excuses for others. I'd say we tend to see the good in people. Also I think we get along with most people and tend not to fall out. We're also honest people and judge by our standards. Hence, we believe that we wouldn't do that to someone, so they wouldn't do it to us. Friends of mine have occassionally described me as naive......thank goodness they accept me warts and all . And yes you're right our h's know this and so they wear us down. They know that if at first they don't succeed they will try try and try again. Thats why we have to be consistent with them. What they will do is vacuum people up into their situation. Hence your h's phone calls to you when he has a problem or something he wants to talk about. As he knows no one else will be vacuumed up, he returns to the person he knows will respond....and that's you Liv. Now, it's up to you whether you want to fulfil that role in his life anymore.
Liv you do deserve a medal. I know how you must feel about yourself. But most people would have done a runner on your h, but you're still there putting your d and him before yourself. That in my opinion is commendable. Many people would say that it's ok to cut and run which it is of course. We do what we do and than live by it don't we?
You do have obvious potential your friends are right. I doubt that it is completely untapped. Many people underestimate the challenge motherhood presents to us and you are doing an excellent job in that area. Also you are running your own business...this again utilises a lot of potential.....many people couldn't do that either.
As for the divorce? That's just a piece of paper really isn't it? If you have to wait three years where you are now so be it. Alternative you could move away. I think moving away is a bit extreme just for that piece of paper. But again that's your choice isn't it? If you want to move ok fine move. But move because you want to not for any other reason.
Whatever you decide, with anything thats going through your mind, think carefully first, decide, plan practice and then do it! Don't change your mind. Don't be pursuaded. Stick to what you have decided.
Yes initially it will be difficult. Your h will be angry at you. He will play all the games that he has played with you for years. And he will try and press those buttons that he knows are there to get you going. You must not waver Liv.....you must stick with it.
Livenlearn, Hi, I've learned much from your thread. Thanks!
When H calls next time and pressures for meeting try... that won't work for me. Remember you don't owe him other info. The phone isn't really his to question either. Why not tell him in email, I have a new phone and you'll probably notice the change in answering machine message. Then you don't have to defend. It is just a fact.
You know your sitch best but this might take away H opportunity to turn your decision/change back at you.
Hope U get to keep the house for a long time. Kids don't like that kind of change much. Midwest
Liv, I've been meaning to write you about setting boundaries with your H. I think our Hs are very similar. Mine is narcissistic and passive-aggressive. He is emotionally sneaky!
So, what I've learned to do is be very specific when I ask him to do something. Not "Will you pick up the kids after school?" because that could be 6pm! I say, "Will you pick up the kids at 4pm?"
I say, "I do not feel comfortable having you in the house. You may come into the foyer but no hanging out in the house."
I say, "I am not comfortable having you sit in the same pew as me at church. Please sit somewhere else."
I say, "No, I will not join you and the children for lunch."
I say, "No, it's my weekend with the children. You may not join us in our outing."
I don't want to sound cruel or anything. It's not that -- I am actually very cordial in my contact with STBXH. I'm just firm and continue to stick to the boundaries.
I use email to contact him, and got caller ID so the kids answer his calls.
Maybe that's anti-DBing, but it has improved my mood because I am no longer whipsawed or manipulated by the Master Manipulator.
You are right on about Narcissists and how they pick their partners. I have read a great on the subject, and it is very common for them to pick someone who forgives very easily and tends to put up with their shenagens (I have been at fault about putting up with this also). When they hit rock bottom, they tend to resurface and sometimes beg for another chance...but they are only looking after their best interest in R's. Once the newness of getting back subsides, they tend to repeat the same narcissistic patterns, leaving the LBS heartbroken and devasted again. It really is quite a vicous cycle...my ex-bf has been going through this literally for many years, each time thinking he was at fault for problems in the M and hanging on to a fantasy of what could have been. In truly narcissistic people though, they really cannot be normal and giving. They only give when it benefits their own goal, and the act can be quite encouraging to the person who wants the R to work so badly. But when this happens over and over again, many times the LBS knows what the end result will be again and hopefully moves on to a better life. Nobody deserves this kind of treatment, but it does happen all the time. My ex's ex-w came back after divorce and was so desperate for him to return to her and he did. But 2 years later, she did the exact same things she did for so many years before...seeing other people, kicking him out every few weeks, on and on. I think in the worst cases, the LBS really needs to get professional help to understand this is not about them, but they do need to help find out why they feel the need to return under the worst case circumstances. Only then can the LBS return to a normal life, and hopefully one day find someone who appreciates them and loves them for who they are.
I am going through the same cycles of wondering why it all happened. I woke up in the early hours this morning, thinking about it all. Even after reading all about NPD etc, it is still churning in my head. I think it was brought on by reading all H's emails to me since the autumn of 2003 yesterday. He has ranged from rage to almost affection. And lots of blame. About how I do/did so little.
So then I think, I do so little!
But wait - what brings me up short is thinking about a period about a year before the bomb. I have recounted this episode in detail before on a much earlier thread. But in a nutshell -
My mother (82) had been visiting, fallen and fractured her hip, but it was not picked up at the hospital so I was looking after her at home. I was nursing her 24 hours, doing every intimate job, she was in agony the whole time, on pain killers, couldn't walk, sit, lie down, nothing. She used to sleep half propped up on the sofa. She needed to go to the toilet twice or thrice a night, of course it meant I got up to help her. She was verging on incontinent. You get the picture.
D was off school with mumps for a couple of weeks in the middle and had to be entertained, yet kept away from her friends for a while. Our small overcrowded house was on the market, and we had prospective buyers coming around every second day, in groups, so the house had to be kept really clean and tidy. Of course I was also shopping, cooking and cleaning as usual, and H works from home. Can you say I had my hands full?
It turns out that H was crying on OW1's shoulder that he never got to relax after a day of work! And she turned around and told me that! Poor him!
I guess the fact that my hands were full with mostly OTHER people is what really rankled.
If you look at Betsey over in Hoping and all she has done to "improve" herself in the past two years, and it still isn't enough to interest her H in their marriage...
My H doesn't want to repair the marriage and I have also come to that decision. But it still follows that I am "doing nothing" and he shouldn't have to pay me so much blah blah blah. I think he will only stop applying the pressure if he is paying nothing and I am also looking after his daughter most of the time, so he has his "freedom", all his earnings for himself, and his daughter when he wishes but not otherwise, like when it's raining - I kid you not, LOL!! (I actually found that in one of his emails yesterday. )
So I have got to think of him as strictly business.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
I think I will install the new phone today. I don't need to explain to ANYBODY why I have a new phone!
Does The WORK in "Loving what is" clash with seeing your H through the glasses of Narcissist and PA 'disorders'?
It has got to the point where I need to set down boundaries for my own peace of mind, nothing else. I am not out to get anyone, nor find blame or get revenge.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
I wouldn't move countries just for a piece of paper, you're right. But a divorce is also a final settlement, though I guess the agro could and probably will just go on and on.
Also, there would be physical distance, and much much better work opportunities.
But I have poured so much energy into this house the last few years. And D is settled here. She would have to change her medium (language) of education too, and that's a big change. Better earlier than later.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
