Lou - I loved the bunny joke but was in tears when I read it and couldn't get up the enthusiasm to laugh. I know you love bunnies really!
Gabriel - How did I not get angry? I rarely get angry anyway, I get hurt rather than angry usually. I was not hurt when he first said it because he said ILY just a couple of hours before that and I was still on a high.
Whenever I said something negative I'd then tell him I wasn't getting at him, just giving my opinion, and always hug after the discussion.
As I found out last night, though, LETTERS don't work with him. I won't be doing that one again.
Bulldog - I'll be onto your sitch is just a tick, I promise.
At the moment I don't feel as if I'm the queen of all authority on relationships but I'll do my best.
WELL WE HAD OUR FIRST ARGUMENT SINCE WE GOT TOGETHER IN DECEMBER:
And guess what it was about!? My bl**dy mother!!!!!
I sent an email saying the same thing that I told Ellie to H, his response was 'I don't know what you're getting so stressed about' (brush off).
I tried to discuss it with him but he refused to look at my side other than to tell me that my opinion did matter but providing no evidence as to how it mattered.
Then once he couldn't make me agree that he is right to send the kids round to my mother's, he blew up in my face 'I might have known it would be about this! It's ALWAYS about this! Just like the old days!' (the old days when we fought about my mother and stuff she'd done all the time).
It DOES seem infuriating that the first disagreement we have is about her, like we are going back to the same cycle of being in love as partners but then mother darling does something, H tries to see it from both sides and ends up sitting on the fence while I feel my opinions aren't valued. We did this for 8 years, hence the split.
I tried to defuse the situation by saying I was just stating my opinion and being honest (this usually works in person but we were on msn) and by saying I didn't want to walk on egg-shells with him, I wanted to be confident enough to state my opinion without fear of an argument.
He said he felt the same way about talking to me. Then he went silent and I eventually said goodnight, sleep well, but got no response.
Lou's bunny joke was right after that while I was sitting at my computer with tears streaming down my face, and to think that on Monday he told me he loves me for the first time in 3 years and then the next day we have a row about HER!!!
I couldn't sleep all night and when I did I had this most horrific nightmare - you know I could write a murder mystery book with the plot line I got from that dream, it was terrible!
I woke up feeling guilty that my mind could contain such horrible things.
We've been slobbing round in our PJ's and we've only just had breakfast despite it being 10.28am.
I don't know what to do now. My initial feeling was to go dark until I see him next (Sam changed the Thursday date to Saturday as she has to see her dad) - so the next time I see him will be Friday, and I could test the waters then.
But when I got up this morning I thought how he never said goodnight and I am caught between wanting to go dark and wanting to make amends. If I called him now, do you think that would wind him up? (he's in cave mode) but then if I don't, he might interperet that as I don't care that he never said goodnight....ARRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!
Someone tell me what to do - I have ever encountered an argument before since we started dating.
I mis-read your question because I was still fog-brained from that horrible nightmare - if I could work out an alibi I could write it up as a murder mystery book!
How did I work through my anger with what he did to me? It was in stages over a LONG period of time:
1. Deep depression (as I have told people about before).
2. Focus on past events in the M which were good to compensate for bad current life (that's why I started writing my book about him and me) - writing it down was very theraputic.
3. Reliance on friends for my emotional needs and later on myself (I made loads of new friends post-separation).
4. Getting angry and writing nasty letters to him (didn't work and made him angry so I later starting destroying the letters after I wrote them, it got it out of my system).
5. When he got OW I had 4 one night stands and a fling (I know that sounds terrible, but it was a way of coping with the terrible pain and betrayal - plus my H was the only person I'd ever slept with prior to that as we lost our virginity to each other and I needed to know if other men found me attractive).
6. Total indifference (cutting off completely for my own sanity) this was what eventually brought him round to me.
7. My life-coach gave me coaching for 2 years of this and helped me to understand H's point of view and WHY he was being nasty, which made it difficult for me to hate him. I used techniques given to me by the coach to get a friendship with H and later a relationship.
This was part of a question that Gabriel wrote but I wanted to write it separately for all the other H's on here too:
STUFF MY H DID TO ENABLE MY FORGIVENESS:
1. Sometimes he apologised, either in person or by email.
2. With the fridge incident, he took me to the hospital and sat holding my hand and hugging me for 4 hours and I took tell by his eyes he felt awful about it, he had this 'OMG, what have I done' look in his eyes, as it was his baby he was endangering too because she was on a foetal heart monitor due to that. This was enough for me to forgive him - he did put it back afterwards (but not the food, because he ate that, Lol).
3. He still remembered my birthday's and sent me flowers and took me out to dinner even when we were fighting the rest of the time (we put our differences aside for that), strange because he wouldn't do that at xmas for the kids, just on my birthday.
This obviously doesn't work for a LBS but if the H is a WAH and he still remembers your birthday, well, it's a good indicator there are still feelings. I am a sucker for romance and even if he'd done something horrible and then brought me flowers, I'd be like 'ahh, how sweet'. Stupid female.
4. A couple of times he'd gone really over the top, he offered to take me on a mini break (we were not dating then) - I accepted on both ocassions, one time he took me to Clacton on Sea (beach resort) and another time to Wales.
5. Over-compensating with baby because he was rotten to me, i.e, insult me and then buy our baby �120 of clothes (worth the fall out then, - only joking).
6. Cry in front of me (this happened maybe twice) so I knew he was suffering too.
7. He would never let others insult me even if he was, because I heard from his relatives that whenever they tried to bad-mouth me, he'd jump to my defence immediately and tell them to shutup. This helped me to forgive him a lot
8. He told his brother that I gave him 'the best sex he's ever had in his life' an his brother told me
9. He was always there when it counted even if we were fighting the rest of the time. For instance one time I was followed back from a Christmas party and this bloke tried to make me get off with him. I eventually managed to get him to leave me alone but it scared the crap out of me and I rang H in tears even though we normally had no contact. He talked me through it on the phone and told me to go to the police etc and he was really sweet to me even though we weren't on speaking terms. (I did not go to the police as I was not attacked as such, I was just frightened half to death so I didn't think it merited the police).
My point being, that he was still always there if I needed him. I knew that even in court, if my house was burning down he'd be there with a bucket of water, trying to put it out
I don't think any of this is very useful to people now I've written it, but they are the things he did which enabled me not to hate him.
Quote: sent an email saying the same thing that I told Ellie to H, his response was 'I don't know what you're getting so stressed about' (brush off).
I tried to discuss it with him but he refused to look at my side other than to tell me that my opinion did matter but providing no evidence as to how it mattered.
Then once he couldn't make me agree that he is right to send the kids round to my mother's, he blew up in my face 'I might have known it would be about this! It's ALWAYS about this! Just like the old days!' (the old days when we fought about my mother and stuff she'd done all the time).
Do you think maybe you pushed to hard for a concession or continued conversation?
There's a difference between simply stating what you want ("I would rather the girls not see my mom and these are my reasons why") and pushing H to give you a specific answer ("Oh my gosh, of course YOU are right, dear Jo!"). Mars and Venus talks about how women like to hash everything out, and men like to keep it simple. So maybe it would work better with him to simply state your wants, then let it percolate in his brain?
Also - what do you think is the underlying issue here for him? Is he connected to your mom as a "substitute mom" in some way? Does he see you forgiving your mom as a corollary to you forgiving him?
Anyway - the best way to defuse a sitch like this is through validation. Something like "I'm sorry for pushing so much yesterday, I know you are just trying to be kind to my mother."
That leaves the door open for him to say something like "yes, but I understand why she scares you".
Then you could say something like "I just worry about her hurting you with more false accusations".
Quote: I loved the bunny joke but was in tears when I read it and couldn't get up the enthusiasm to laugh. I
Jo I am happy I did not hit a raw nerve with the joke.
Sorry to hear you are having a row with your H.
Quote: But when I got up this morning I thought how he never said goodnight and I am caught between wanting to go dark and wanting to make amends.
Your H sounds a little like me. I want to voice my opinion, W sees things differently, we disagree, I don't know what to say. I get wery quiet so I don't say the wrong thing or anything I might regret later.
Jo, you might just ask how he is feeling about the discussion. Nothing to do with who is right or wrong. You might say you are feeling a little lost as what to say for yourself right now.
No going dark or no amends either. Just say you like where you were a couple of days ago when there was good feelings between you and him.
I can't think of much more but I might agree with Elie if you want to lighten the pressure about issues with your mother.
MY W is on a spending mode again. I am having a difficult time being around her. I am not telling her what I think about her lastest purchases so have a lot of resentments that I am holding in. Like Ellie said, guys get quiet and go to their cave when they can't deal with things. W not talking either.
My car bumper sitcker feelings for the hour is "Wife for sale cheap, take over payments."
Jo Don't let the above get you down. I Just had to write it down. You have enough to do getting your family back together.
H hates my mother as much as I do and he wouldn't want her mothering him or our dd's. Apart from all the issues to do with her which I have described, we can't stand her parenting style which previously she always tried to force on our dd's or force us to bring them up the way she wanted and then when we put our foot down and said no, she would try to force us to parent her way via CPS.
He knows he doesn't need to forgive her to get my forgiveness. He is aware that forgiving her is likely to make me angry - it's why it took him so long to tell me they have had phone contact.
I think that his reasoning is that he is trying to fix everything that is wrong in his life, i.e, he's making a big effort to fix our M and repair the damage done to the kids in the custody battle, and now he figures he can 'fix' his R with her as grandmother of his children.
He admits, though, that my R with her is beyond repair and that he doesn't want a personal R with her, he's doing it 'for the kids' (I think she would treat the kids the same as she treated me, but that's beside the point to him).
Regarding the disagreement, I think there were faults on both sides now I look at it. He responded to my letter in a really negative way, 'I can't see what you're getting so stressed about' and when I said these are my feelings why I don't want this, he didn't discuss it at all but just said 'that's not going to happen' to everything I said which made me feel as if he wasn't listening to me or didn't care what I thought.
I knew from the outset he would not change his mind as he doesn't do parental decisions with me and never has - I have always felt they are 'his' rather than 'ours', like I am a giving birth machine and he just takes over afterwards.
I just wanted to say how I felt because I don't want to turn into one of those W's who stays silent and does everything he says to keep the peace and then 30 years later, flips and walks out with MLC. I want an open and honest R even if he does control all the child rearing decisions.
I told him this and he said my opinions do matter and that's when I went wrong because I asked him how they matter and I should have just shutup. That's when he launched into the 'OMG, it's always like this' remark.
But I honestly don't think I'll do another letter as he has never wanted me to do any active parenting of our kids, just general stuff like playing, washing, feeding etc and maintenance of them but not anything that requires real responsibility or decision making.
I think I should just try to accept that I will never have the mother role I want if I want my M to work.
Well, I decided I would call him once this morning and I said 'Are you okay?' And he said he was fine and he sounded normal so I think he's got over it and I think it will be okay so I let him go and will just see him Friday as normal.
I admit, I do feel bugged sometimes that he doesn't seem to value my mothering contribution even if he does value me personally.
My greatest challenge is learning how to handle this resentful emotion and change it into something else.
Can you get your W's CC's changed into her sole name so that anything she spends, she has to be responsible for?
These points are very helpful - good possibilities and issues to think about. If my W took to apologiizing once in awhile, our R would be in much better shape, but I think she's a ways from there still.
I liked your sensitivity to the differences b/t the sitches with a WAW vs. a WAH, and imagine that you're early advice on my thread is on target - to avoid the romance and pursuit for now. Its more about me going dark, staying positive, and not letting her get the impression that I'm a spineless worm willing to merely wait for her.
I asked in part to see what my W might need to go thru to 'work thru' her own anger/resentment. I've seen some of this already: the depression, the reliance on friends, the nastiness (in person, not in letters! ), and rather than a life coach - counseling. Hopefully, she won't do the one-night stand or OM stuff, but then I'm not seeing an OW now either.
If she is blaming me for our finances (moderate debt), how might I ease this? I'm doing a good amount of extra work to pay off my share quickly. Is that too distant or cold, or might that be just the thing to quiet this worry?
Sounds like H could use a lesson in Venusian. H didn't validate your feelings very well, did he? I'm glad that things ended up smoothing out. I can understand your trepidation w/ arguments. Kind of makes you worried that arguments will undo the progress you have made in your R?
Now a question about my W. W and I were talking about fitness a few months ago and I told her that I thought she could do very well working out w/o a personal trainer b/c she is so disciplined. I was trying out some Words of Affirmation love language and, as it turns out, was doing some validation. Well, it's been a few months since then. I don't know if you caught it in my post, but W told me as I was leaving that she was taking my advice , or that I was right or something, and starting to train on her own. It was totally out of the blue and unsolicited. So, we talked about that for a little while. One thing she said was that she doesn't like to work out alone b/c she can get bored w/o someone to talk to and that there is less motivation for her. I validated, but not to the level I would have liked.
What significance do you draw from the fact that she shared this bit of info w/ me and in the way she did and months after we talked about the topic?
Do you think that I could readdress the topic and better validate her endeavors w/o making it uncomfortable?
Do you think she was testing the waters by saying that she prefers not to work out by herself? (She hasn't really been good at being alone in general in our R.)
Is there an opportunity there for me to suggest we could work out together sometime if she would like, coinciding w/ validating that working out by one's self is challenging?
I don't know. As I have shared w/ you and you have probably concluded on your own, W is sending me mixed signals about the sitch. It's full steam ahead w/ the D, but then it seems like she isn't sincere about D in the things she has said to me and in the way she seems to be reaching out to me. Baby steps are good, but where are they leading?
Anyway, I thought you might have some insight. And again, I'm sorry for turning your thread into a psychiatrist's couch. You're not a Freudian, are you? Because, I'm not in love w/ my mother and I don't want to murder my father. So, don't worry about it.
Your post made me laugh, especially the bit about how you don't want to murder your father!
I trained in Rogerian style (Carl Rogers, person-centred therapy) but I wasn't very impressed with the techniques taught to me at university and think they are very suited to extremely distressed or suicidal people but not much good for people who want solutions to specific issues. I then specialised in dysfunctional families, but it was mainly what my coach taught me (similar principles to DB'ing) that really impressed me.
I do use Freud but only with dreams (he did a lot of work with the unconscious) - some of his interpretations of dream symbols are very useful to me as I interpret my own dreams to help me in my sitch with H and it does actually provide me with a lot of guidance.
Re my H, yes, to be honest I was terrified it would unravel all the progress, but then I thought, he just said he loves me the day before so you can't suddenly not love someone when you have told them you do. A bit of rationalization and speaking to him on the phone helped. I am still a little unnerved by it but I shall feel better when I see him on Friday.
Re your W and the fitness training, obviously I have not met her so I only have your side to go on, but from what you've said, it seems as if she's a bit lonely and wanting to share some of her life with you.
It wouldn't surprise me if she doesn't like going on her own, this comment seems like a hint. She's discussing it again because she was able to discuss it with you those months ago in a positive way so she knows she can bring it up and still feel safe because it's 'tried and tested' - it's a way of connecting in to something she knows you can talk about.
Why don't you try (gently) asking her how her training is going next time you see her, and see if that fires another conversation between you? It's conversation and common interest which sew the seeds for a friendship.
You could suggest working out with her but if she backtracks, don't mention it again. Perhaps to start with you could initiate the fitness discussion and see where that leads you, have a few more of those before you suggest going with her.
If you keep talking, she might suggest it herself.
Mixed signals are common in people who still have feelings and are not sure if they are doing the right thing. She may in the end decide to D, or like my H, it may take a D for her to realise that she loves you, or these baby steps may avert a D altogether.
None of us are fortune tellers so I think it's best not to stress out about where it's going. You can't know that and at least you are trying. I'd just go with the flow - I know it's painful when you love someone (I wish I saw H more than twice a week) but it's what has to happen if we want to strengthen our R's.
I won't be doing that one again.
but I'll do my best.
- only joking).