He's leaving

[sage]

Sage, I think you're wonderful and wise, but I have a contrary opinion based on J's history and the patterns that have repeated over and over again. My 2 cents...

Hey NY, thanks for the compliment! We can all be wonderful and wise and still have differing opinions. That's cool.

JV, I want to avoid bombarding you with conflicting advice so let me say upfront that you know your sitch better than any of us! I will say that there's absolutely no better way to figure out what's right for your sitch than to pull out your copy of DR and get to work on some goals.

I'm not expecting anything either.
--------------------------------------
Why NOT?

Because expectations can be unrealized and that leads to disappointment, frustration and anger. That's why it's advised to deal with outcomes and results instead.

OK...so perhaps expectations was the wrong word to focus on...I agree that having an expectation for how a certain exchange will occur can lead to dashed hopes. And while I agree that "outcomes and results" are absolutely key to evaluation I think that you are missing one "forward looking" piece...I will call them "goals" as opposed to "expectations".

I will not show enthusiasm if he gets close.
-----------------------------------------------
Bluntness alert!!!

But it's everytime J becomes enthusiastic that H distances again. Additionally, it's mentioned in the DR book not to show enthusiasm if the WAS expresses an interest in working on the relationship.

So J never gets to reengage and be enthusiastic around her h?

I guess I've missed the times when h has withdrawn after J has shown enthusiasm...what I've been seeing lately is him making efforts (albeit small) to reach out to her and then getting pretty confused by her reactions. At some point, well within the DB approach, it seems perfectly ok for the LBS to react with enthusiasm, no? Not in an overwhelming way but with openness.

I guess I'll add one other thing...I'm not specifically talking about showing enthusiasm for "h wanting to work on the m" -- I'm talking about showing enthusiasm for being around him, for his phone calls, over dinner, whatever.

GET your hopes up

And if they're dashed, she'll be crushed. Besides, heightening the hope won't induce a reconciliation. If anything, it may make J act too enthusiastic.

Hmmmm...maybe this falls into the same category of the expectations conversation above. To me it's the difference between setting a goal that says "things won't stink today" vs. "things will be better today".

We all have the possibility of our hopes getting dashed...anyone who embarks upon DB'ing is essentially going against what the WAS is saying they want and hoping it can be different.

What feels like "pursuing" early on in DB'ing (basically ANYTHING from making the first phone call to sending the first email) is NOT necessarily "bad" during the next phase...

J's not at the "next phase". All H said was he won't leave. That is not the same as saying, "Honey, I want to work on this marriage". He's not quite there yet, and J still has to stay true to the path that is corralling him in. This is a repeat of her history. He's been confused before, seemingly so, about whether to stay or go, and has tried to have J make the decision for him. She was tired of the ordeal and said to leave. He really doesn't want to leave, and she had distanced herself both in action and by telling him to leave. Now he's there. Her non pursuit is helping set the climate for reeling him in. If she does any pursuing now, it will be like before, and he could distance himself again.

So, a couple of things jump out at me here...first of all, I hope that J isn't waiting to hear the words "I will work on this M" from h because it may very well be a long wait...NOT because he isn't moving closer to that direction but because the WORDS very, very often lag very far behind the ACTIONS of the WAS.

I think we just disagree on how much "backing away" J should be doing at this point. IMHO, now is a great time to take some babysteps towards creating positive experiences with h. He's choosing to still be there...keep up the effort to show him why that's a good choice.

She needs to be lovingly indifferent still, thus encouraging him, but not pursuing him.

I don't recall suggesting pursuit but I think that "indifference" in this case is not going to be particularly encouraging.

J, is your head spinning? Let's back up from the overall philosophical discussions and take really small steps, ok?

A couple of goals, a complaint or two from h from what contributed to the M demise and how about some thoughts on getting your pma up?

Sage