He's leaving

[ValerieA]

Thank you so much, NY, Sage, and Pamela. I REALLY cannot say it enough.

I am so confused with what's going on now.

H did not call before he got here. He just showed up at 12pm. S5 was home from kindergarten for the day and got his hugs in first. I was holding the baby and handed him over to H for his hugs.

I started to walk away, but then H grabbed my hand and pulled me close for a hug. We didn't say anything. After a moment, I let go and went about my business in the kitchen.

A minute goes by and H comes up to me, grabs my hand, and leads me into the living room. We stand there hugging and he says, "I don't really know what to say......I went way overboard with alot of things I said to you last night. I didn't mean alot of it." He apologized for having said a VICIOUS comment to me and said that was NOT how he felt at all. I apologized for things that I said as well. I was hurt, and it was wrong for me to try to retaliate.

Not too long after that, I was in the kitchen again, H comes up to me and initiates hugging and kissing. I was very uncomfortable......

To be continued. H is coming.

[ValerieA]

Ok, sorry. I'll try to finish this time. H isn't here right now. So, let's see....

I was in the kitchen when H came to me and initiated more hugging. Then he started kissing me. I was trembling like crazy, uncomfortable, and confused. I was a bit tight-lipped, so he rubbed his thumbs to "loosen" them up. We kissed (if you could call it that ), H hugged me again and said, "I really did miss you, JV." I told him I missed him, too.

Awhile later, H comes up to me and asks if we can talk. I said I really didn't want to. He asked why, and I said because I just don't want to. I was afraid I was going to cry more. H said he was sorry for making me cry. I told him it wasn't his fault. The crying is something I need to try to control.

A few moments go by, H goes into the bedroom and comes out in just his "lounging" shorts. He asked, "Is it alright if I just relax here for awhile?" I said yes.

I'm trying my hardest to not be sulky, but I was so emotionally drained. I would describe my demeanor today as ho-hum. Not cheery but also not mopey.

H was mostly playing cards online the whole day. He would talk to me here and there often, just a little chit-chat. I was pleasant and mostly just listened. We smiled and laughed a few times.

I left to get S9 from school and came back. S9 ran and got his hugs from H. They talked for a bit then I hear S9 say ok. S9 comes up to my ear and says rather loudly , "Dad wants you to go give him a kiss!" H said, "You were supposed to whisper it, silly!" We laughed then I walked over to him and gave H a small kiss. I was going to walk away, but H held onto me for awhile.

Later, I was helping S9 with his homework and while I was explaining it to him, H was talking to me at the same time about having to schedule installs for local jobs. I also heard him say, "So do you want me to leave tonight?" I just acted like I didn't hear that last bit from him, and H didn't say anything more.

After that, H went to take a shower and that was when I was trying to post here, but I kept getting busy with the kids and then H came out.

I was sitting on the couch reading newsletters from the school when H came and sat next to me. H said, "So...do you want me to leave tonight? I will if you do." I was quiet for a moment thinking of what I wanted to say without sounding like I REALLY wanted him to stay. I told H, "No, I don't want you to leave,.....but I do want you to be happy." H said, "Well, I don't think I'll be happy if I leave. And I know I won't be happy leaving if you're sad." Then H told me that (best friend) was coming by for equipment and talked of his plans for the rest of the evening.

I have left H alone the whole time he's been here. I haven't initiated anything. It's been all him. He wanted to start an R talk that once, but as you know, I said no. He pretty much left it alone.

H is at the gym now but will be back soon.

I don't know what's going on anymore. I'm not expecting anything either. He is here AGAIN. I will not have R talks. I will not show enthusiasm if he gets close. I'm not saying I'll be frigid. I just mean that I won't get my hopes up. This HAS been a back and forth thing, and I am so exhausted from it.

This may be my last chance IF H is staying home. I know I'll be coming here ALOT when I'm going through MY uncertainties so PLEASE bear with me! Like I posted earlier, I am SOOOO glad that I came here. You are all absolutely tremendous people, and I'm FOREVER grateful!

Thank you for always listening!

JV

[sage]

Jv,

Hi. Hope you're doing ok this am. Sounds like you had an emotional night with h. It also sounds like he is interested in being with you, in rebuilding (dare I say "piecing"? ) your M. How wonderful!

I don't know what's going on anymore. I'm not expecting anything either. He is here AGAIN. I will not have R talks. I will not show enthusiasm if he gets close. I'm not saying I'll be frigid. I just mean that I won't get my hopes up. This HAS been a back and forth thing, and I am so exhausted from it.

Can I take a stab at this? I hope that what I write doesn't come off as too blunt.

I don't know what's going on anymore.

Seems like what is going on is that your h wants to be home with you. His actions and words suggest that he wants to rebuild this M.

I'm not expecting anything either.

Why NOT? What are your goals for this M, JV? What are your hopes for it? Ask yourself Michele's million dollar question...if you woke up tomorrow and everything was perfect, what would you see? What would your M look like? What would your life look like?

Why not construct goals that get you there?

If you expect nothing I fear that you will get nothing.

If you expect and work towards something wonderful, well, I can't promise that you'll get it but your odds are much better.

He is here AGAIN.

Um...this isn't really new, right? Hasn't h been "here" for a while now? (Yes, I know that he's been travelling but...)

I will not have R talks.

GOOD. Use that time and energy to create loving, positive interactions instead!

I will not show enthusiasm if he gets close.

Bluntness alert!!!

I think that NOT showing enthusiasm is a mistake. And I do not think it will get you closer to your goals (assuming that they are rebuilding your M).

Your h is indicating that he:
a. doesn't want to leave the M
b. wants to be happy with you
c. wants you to be happy

How will not being enthusiastic help that? How will not being enthusiastic convey to him that you are rebuilding your M?

I'm not suggesting pursuing or overwhelming him with anything but I think it's counter to your goals to not be enthusiastic and warm and open and funny and happy to be with him.

I can't completely recall but wasn't one of h's issues with the M that he thought you didn't want to hang out with him? Or didn't enjoy him?

I'm not saying I'll be frigid. I just mean that I won't get my hopes up.

See my comments on expectations above... GET your hopes up, JV, start focusing on the positives in your situation...start setting some positive goals that reflect a confidence in rebuilding.

This HAS been a back and forth thing, and I am so exhausted from it.

Bluntness alert!!!

I agree that it has been a back and forth thing and I know that you're exhausted but (cough, cough) I feel as though you've created some of the churn yourself by sending some mixed messages to your h (and possibly to yourself).

Waxing on....I think that DB'ing to get your M our of crisis mode and DB'ing to piece are similar but different (wow, Sage really goes out on a limb there!). In fact, the process of DB'ing from crisis to less crisis to piecing to ahhhhh is a continuum that has these similarities:

1. Do what works
2. Don't do what doesn't work
3. Focus on what you can control

and probably many others.

Those can mean different things depending on the stage that you're at...

What feels like "pursuing" early on in DB'ing (basically ANYTHING from making the first phone call to sending the first email) is NOT necessarily "bad" during the next phase...IOW, at some point during the reconcilliation process you're going to have to take a wee step towards him or react really positively when he takes a step towards you, right? Otherwise aren't you going to just be standing still waiting for him to take the 50 steps (all by himself???) that separate you? That's a lot to ask, I think.

Here's the example from your sitch that's been weighing on my mind...the phone...

It "seems" like h will call you and you won't answer for the first 2 or 3 times that he's called. If he leaves a message you often don't call him back.

OK...maybe at some point early on in DB'ing that's cool...you answer once for every 3 times that he calls or return one call for every 2 messages that he leaves...

AND, when you do speak with him your are full of zest and passion and enthusiasm for the GAL stuff you've been doing...

But, that's not the stage that you're at, is it? And that's not really what happens, right?

It seems like eventually you pick up the phone and h is somewhat frenzied (because he's been calling and calling). And you're not bustling with fun and friendly conversation but you're a) irked and tired and b) even MORE irked and tired because you can't understand why he keeps calling and acting like it's so important to talk with you.

And then we all think "oh, cool, your h is really pursuing you now!"

Actually, I think your h is frustrated and confused and ends up pretty frantic. (so, negative pursuit, not positive pursuit).

And then the back and forth continues.

And...the back and forth is also exacerbated because h has expressed confusion and you've leapt into making decisions for him, right? but then you're left feeling as though HE wants something when in fact YOU'VE suggested it and HE'S confused and YOU'RE confused and ....

Here is my absolute best suggestion for you. Get out your copy of DR. Read it again with the following thought in mind: My h has indicated a willingness to piece this marriage. How can I structure my goals and 180s with this updated status in mind?

Then, let's talk about your goals...remember the idea of "1 for you, 1 to enhance your M and 1 to specifically address an issue that h had"? What would your goals look like if you tried that?

Then, let's talk about how to get some more time for JV and get her spririts and health and energy and enthusiasm up...the whole GAL thing to make you healthier and the M healthier and happier.

What do you think?

Sage

PS Have you considered a consult with one of the DB phone coaches? That might be well worth the $ to get some "piecing" focus!

[sun387]

JV

As usual, Sage comes through with her words of wisdom. Honestly I think that Sage is right on here. Your H is telling you in his actions, he wants to be there, he wants to be happy with YOU! All along you were dreading his coming home because you were unsure of how to react towards H. He showed you how to react, HAPPY! He initiated alot of affection and at first I would of been taken aback by it as well, but after the first initiation I would of been metling inside and excited to have made it that. I do find it strange that since H wanted to talk about the R that you didnt. That is fine because as Sage said dont talk, do! But in my house, H NEVER wants to talk, so if he initiated R talk I would most certainly listen. Not talk, listen!
Not that things get magically fixed here, but this is a huge positive for you. If you want to work on your marriage that is. And you wouldnt be here on this board if you did not want to work on your marriage right? I think that is everyones ultimate goal here, work on ourselves and our marriages will follow right.

I agree with Sages opinion on the phone calls. He is constantly trying to get you on the phone and you dont respond. Yes miss a phone call or two, not them all. Well H is there right now, and now is the time to refocus your goals. Have you identified some of the things in your M that you did that caused its demise? I know when I looked at myself I did find little things that probably snowballed into big things for H. I changed them for me, and you know what I am a better person for it regardless of what happens with H. What are some of the things you can do to create a positive R with H?
You have a new opportunity here JV - Take it..

We are rooting for you.
Sun

[NYsurvivor]

Sage, I think you're wonderful and wise, but I have a contrary opinion based on J's history and the patterns that have repeated over and over again. My 2 cents...

I'm not expecting anything either.
--------------------------------------
Why NOT?

Because expectations can be unrealized and that leads to disappointment, frustration and anger. That's why it's advised to deal with outcomes and results instead.


I will not show enthusiasm if he gets close.
-----------------------------------------------
Bluntness alert!!!

But it's everytime J becomes enthusiastic that H distances again. Additionally, it's mentioned in the DR book not to show enthusiasm if the WAS expresses an interest in working on the relationship.

GET your hopes up

And if they're dashed, she'll be crushed. Besides, heightening the hope won't induce a reconciliation. If anything, it may make J act too enthusiastic.

What feels like "pursuing" early on in DB'ing (basically ANYTHING from making the first phone call to sending the first email) is NOT necessarily "bad" during the next phase...

J's not at the "next phase". All H said was he won't leave. That is not the same as saying, "Honey, I want to work on this marriage". He's not quite there yet, and J still has to stay true to the path that is corralling him in. This is a repeat of her history. He's been confused before, seemingly so, about whether to stay or go, and has tried to have J make the decision for him. She was tired of the ordeal and said to leave. He really doesn't want to leave, and she had distanced herself both in action and by telling him to leave. Now he's there. Her non pursuit is helping set the climate for reeling him in. If she does any pursuing now, it will be like before, and he could distance himself again.

She needs to be lovingly indifferent still, thus encouraging him, but not pursuing him.

[unsure70]

I disagree with what NY says about the trend, when you back off it doesn't necessarily draw him closer...what happens when you don't answer the phone...he is irritated and annoyed when you do talk to him. I don't think see that he only distances himself when you pursue.

He thinks the reason you are unhappy is because of what he did...robbed you of your potential greatness in life, cheated on you, whatever....show him that you are happy. Nobody wants to be around somebody who is miserable, especially if they are miserable.

Maybe he is looking for more than you are giving him, next time he asks if you want him to leave tell him the truth: No H, I don't want you to leave. Leave it at that.

I was a bit stunned when saw the advice to have hopes and expectations....I think most of us here try not to, say we don't but of course we all do. You have been spending so much time obsessing and dwelling and overanalyzing what you want and what your H wants it's like you are numb.

J's not at the "next phase". All H said was he won't leave. That is not the same as saying, "Honey, I want to work on this marriage".

My H moved out for 2.5 months, he has been home since mid-oct., in January he told me that he wasn't "working on the m" but he wasn't leaving his kids, in Feb he told me he wasn't "ready to work on the m yet" and was still emailing ow (no PA she is out of state)...we are obvioulsy not perfect and I of course still have doubts but things are improving.

The point is he may never say that he wants to stay and work on the m, that doesn't mean that he's not going to work on it or doesn't want to.

Next time your H wants to talk about your R talk to him, listen to what he is saying, let him do 80% of the talking and most importantly VALIDATE his feelings.

Hope I'm not rambling too much...Sage has very successfully DB'd her m, read her threads, there is lots of good stuff there!

One other thing...what have you done for yourself lately? You need to GAL!

Unsure

[sage]

Sage, I think you're wonderful and wise, but I have a contrary opinion based on J's history and the patterns that have repeated over and over again. My 2 cents...

Hey NY, thanks for the compliment! We can all be wonderful and wise and still have differing opinions. That's cool.

JV, I want to avoid bombarding you with conflicting advice so let me say upfront that you know your sitch better than any of us! I will say that there's absolutely no better way to figure out what's right for your sitch than to pull out your copy of DR and get to work on some goals.

I'm not expecting anything either.
--------------------------------------
Why NOT?

Because expectations can be unrealized and that leads to disappointment, frustration and anger. That's why it's advised to deal with outcomes and results instead.

OK...so perhaps expectations was the wrong word to focus on...I agree that having an expectation for how a certain exchange will occur can lead to dashed hopes. And while I agree that "outcomes and results" are absolutely key to evaluation I think that you are missing one "forward looking" piece...I will call them "goals" as opposed to "expectations".

I will not show enthusiasm if he gets close.
-----------------------------------------------
Bluntness alert!!!

But it's everytime J becomes enthusiastic that H distances again. Additionally, it's mentioned in the DR book not to show enthusiasm if the WAS expresses an interest in working on the relationship.

So J never gets to reengage and be enthusiastic around her h?

I guess I've missed the times when h has withdrawn after J has shown enthusiasm...what I've been seeing lately is him making efforts (albeit small) to reach out to her and then getting pretty confused by her reactions. At some point, well within the DB approach, it seems perfectly ok for the LBS to react with enthusiasm, no? Not in an overwhelming way but with openness.

I guess I'll add one other thing...I'm not specifically talking about showing enthusiasm for "h wanting to work on the m" -- I'm talking about showing enthusiasm for being around him, for his phone calls, over dinner, whatever.

GET your hopes up

And if they're dashed, she'll be crushed. Besides, heightening the hope won't induce a reconciliation. If anything, it may make J act too enthusiastic.

Hmmmm...maybe this falls into the same category of the expectations conversation above. To me it's the difference between setting a goal that says "things won't stink today" vs. "things will be better today".

We all have the possibility of our hopes getting dashed...anyone who embarks upon DB'ing is essentially going against what the WAS is saying they want and hoping it can be different.

What feels like "pursuing" early on in DB'ing (basically ANYTHING from making the first phone call to sending the first email) is NOT necessarily "bad" during the next phase...

J's not at the "next phase". All H said was he won't leave. That is not the same as saying, "Honey, I want to work on this marriage". He's not quite there yet, and J still has to stay true to the path that is corralling him in. This is a repeat of her history. He's been confused before, seemingly so, about whether to stay or go, and has tried to have J make the decision for him. She was tired of the ordeal and said to leave. He really doesn't want to leave, and she had distanced herself both in action and by telling him to leave. Now he's there. Her non pursuit is helping set the climate for reeling him in. If she does any pursuing now, it will be like before, and he could distance himself again.

So, a couple of things jump out at me here...first of all, I hope that J isn't waiting to hear the words "I will work on this M" from h because it may very well be a long wait...NOT because he isn't moving closer to that direction but because the WORDS very, very often lag very far behind the ACTIONS of the WAS.

I think we just disagree on how much "backing away" J should be doing at this point. IMHO, now is a great time to take some babysteps towards creating positive experiences with h. He's choosing to still be there...keep up the effort to show him why that's a good choice.

She needs to be lovingly indifferent still, thus encouraging him, but not pursuing him.

I don't recall suggesting pursuit but I think that "indifference" in this case is not going to be particularly encouraging.

J, is your head spinning? Let's back up from the overall philosophical discussions and take really small steps, ok?

A couple of goals, a complaint or two from h from what contributed to the M demise and how about some thoughts on getting your pma up?

Sage

[sage]

I was a bit stunned when saw the advice to have hopes and expectations....I think most of us here try not to, say we don't but of course we all do. You have been spending so much time obsessing and dwelling and overanalyzing what you want and what your H wants it's like you are numb.

I'm sorry if what I said was confusing. I agree that getting wrapped up in "hopes" and "expectations" is NOT a good thing and if I conveyed otherwise, ugh!!! What I was reacting to was what I felt was J's pretty negative assessment of the current situation which, to me, felt more positive than not.

Let me reiterate a more positive, solution based approach keep expectations low but set positive (but of reachable sized!) goals!

Sage

[NYsurvivor]

Good point unsure and sage about not necessarily ever hearing "let's work on this" spoken. J should be working on it as if... but being "lovingly indifferent" means that she remains loving, supportive, validating, but not tied into emotional buttons of hers being pushed, because then she'll react with her heart rather than act with her brain. Being "lovingly indifferent" is like unconditional love, it's not tied into control. That's all.

And H's having negative reactions doesn't mean her distancing was the wrong thing to do. It might very well be that though triggering an annoyance in him, it draws him back. The very fact that her actions can induce reactions in him show his emotional attachment to her.... and he is back and now says he won't leave, correct?

The DR books do specifically state the idea that enthusiasm should not be shown, as that has a way of scaring the WAS away again, making them retreat. You can ask Michele to chime in here (we never seem to hear any guidance from her here on her own site... why is that?)

So, let's do this:

Goals are what we set for ourselves

Yes, the book does mention having "things by which you will know it's working" type "goals", for example, I may set such a goal of, "if she increases the frequency of contact, I'll know this is working", but here's the issue I have with that...

The actions/baby steps from others that indicate things are working cannot always be realistically defined ahead of time by another person. For example, a "goal" that H spends more time with you, and is not realized, doesn't mean that things aren't working, as perhaps he's listening more nowadays instead, which is a positive step, but "listening" wasn't on your list. That's why the book says to keep your eyes and ears open to positive little baby steps, they come in ways you don't expect.

Expectations are ways and means we expect others to respond/think/do, but they are based on how we think others should respond/think/do, and invariably, we will be disappointed when they don't. It's also a symptom of exerting control over others. We can only control the way we respond/think/do.

So... J, just be full of PMA, validating, don't let him press your buttons, stay on course.

[ValerieA]

WHOA!!

Ok....I'm not sure where to begin! There was alot going on this morning, yes?

My head IS definitely spinning! Still, I thank each and every one of you from my heart.

H has been in and out all day so I'm not going to post much right now. Tomorrow I should be able to go more in-depth since he will be working.

One thing, I want to explain what I meant when I wrote "H is here AGAIN". It was more like "H is HERE again" meaning it "appears" as if he wants to remain with me, and that's why I feel this may be my last chance.

H just called and is around the corner. Let me end this by saying I will act as if H has said he wants to make things "right". I will be loving and supportive, but for the sake of not being emotionally crushed again, I will give H LOTS of space. I will try and suggest some activities H and I can do together, but if he turns me down, I will not take it personally anymore. I know he is a very busy man everyday.

PATIENCE -- That is my IMMEDIATE goal for myself right now. I have not been patient enough, and I think I HAVE been waiting for H to say the words, "I do want to work on our M".

I will read DR again tonight (H plans on going to play in a weekly poker tournament). I will rethink my goals and post them.

My H is still home and has not left. This is a GOOD thing, and I need to tell myself that.

I will also start a new thread seeing how this one is close to being filled.

Hmmm....do I remain here? Or should I go to "Piecing"? WAIT. I'll answer that one myself since I'm acting as if. I will move to "Piecing"!

JV