Well, things keep rolling along of course with bumps along the way.
Tuesday night I was paying the bills and discovered H had paid the cell phone bill w/out telling me. I got upset, more about the sneaking and hiding than anything.
We talked. He said that everyone is on my side and that noone has asked why he would do this. Duh... It is wrong and they are not going to side with you. I didn't say that, just thought it. I tried to explain how hurt his family was. I explained that they don't like the way he is doing things. The would have understood if you were having problems in your M and you divorced then started another R. His dad basically told him that. I told him that they will support him even if they don't agree with how he has done things.
He also doesn't think I can forgive him. I asked him why would I be here if I couldn't do that. He again brought up things I had done in the M. I again apologized to him. Then I asked him, why can't you forgive me? That startled him. He said I never thought of myself as an unforgiving person. The talk was not too long, no yelling, no ugly words. I am sure he perceived it as an argument but it wasn't really.
I asked him later if he had contacted our pastor. He did last Monday but he was on vacatioin. He said no but thought he would call him back since he left a vm. He asked if the pastor was in church on Sun. I said yes as part of the congregation but not preaching. He said I will call tomorrow but I may need reminding. I asked if it was marriage counseling or just counseling for him. We were standing in the breakfast room where we have a broken window that he threw his keys through. He said I hadn't thought that far ahead, but maybe I need to go by myself. I don't want to that anymore (looking at the window). I agreed then asked if he would be willing to go to marriage counseling. He said yes, but let me get straightened out. I need to "get my head out of my butt" (his words not mine).
So, he has his first appt today. He told me he would not tell me about the session. I am not surprised. I won't ask either.
This is so confusing. First he doesn't think I can forgive him and goes on about how terrible our M was then he seems sincere about counseling and is willing to go to M counseling.
I don't know anymore. Yesterday, I was sad. I just don't know if I want to do this anymore. I do know I will not do anything until summer. I will do that for the kids.
We talked. He said that everyone is on my side and that noone has asked why he would do this. Duh... It is wrong and they are not going to side with you. I didn't say that, just thought it. I tried to explain how hurt his family was. I explained that they don't like the way he is doing things. The would have understood if you were having problems in your M and you divorced then started another R. His dad basically told him that. I told him that they will support him even if they don't agree with how he has done things.
Just a suggestion, but rather than telling him how everyone else feels or thinks, ask him what he thinks everyone else may be feeling and thinking. makes him think for himself, which may be more effective in getting a thought across. For example:
He said that everyone is on my side and that no one has asked why he would do this. And so I asked him, "why do you think that may be?"
He also doesn't think I can forgive him. I asked him why would I be here if I couldn't do that.
You're asking him to go into your mind and figure out your motives. This is the same logic as when the W says, "You don't love me!" and the H says, "I'm here with you, aren't I?" In this case it's "You can't forgive me!" and "I'm here, aren't I?" Oh, c'mon Sheryl, just tell him, "I do forgive you. You had your reasons for doing what you did, and you made mistakes and I made mistakes. I understand that. We're only human. I can forgive you."
He again brought up things I had done in the M. I again apologized to him.
Here's where I'd say "stop". If you've apologized before for these things, you need not continually apologize just because he's bringing them up. He shouldn't be re-opening these issues, that's not going to move you guys forward if you're always going over the past. I think you need to help him put a stop to that raising of old issues by saying something like, "we've already gone over that... many times... I've apologized and really don't intend on going back there again. Can we lay that to rest now? It's in the past, and I'd sincerely like to move forward. Wouldn't you?"
Then I asked him, why can't you forgive me?
Do that, and maybe he'll think of all the reasons why he feels he can't forgive you. You lead the way by being forgiving and loving, rather than ask pointed questions.
I am sure he perceived it as an argument but it wasn't really.
But they say perception is everything. If that's his perception of your 'discussion", then he'll see it as the two of you having had an argument.
I posted a few days ago on someone's thread this thought: We tend to minimize the impact of our behavior on others, we discount the effect we have. At the same time, we magnify the impact of others' behaviors on us. The things is, the other person is doing the same thing. They are discounting the impact of their behavior on us, while magnifying the impact our behavior has on them.
This is so confusing. First he doesn't think I can forgive him and goes on about how terrible our M was then he seems sincere about counseling and is willing to go to M counseling.
He's probably confused and it shows. Conflicted. But those are baby steps, aren't they? That's not a bad thing. Let him work it out, you just stay focused on the major plan and stay on track with it and lovingly, subtly guide him home like a beacon.
You are a better person than I. I can't begin to think of forgiving my W for what she has done. My MFT talks about the "3 R's". For her to receive forgiveness, she must show true Remorse, she must Repent and most importantly, take Responsibility for her actions.
Now maybe that doesn't sound very "DB-Correct" but I think I can still feel good about myself without forgiving her. I don't need to forgive her in order for me to feel complete.
I'm proud of you that you are strong enough and feel it in your heart to forgive him. He has shown that he has taken steps to earn, or deserve your forgiveness. My W hasn't even come near the "3 R's". She's not even in the neighborhood!
Sherry, HAVE you forgiven him? If so, have you SAID it to him? If not, maybe he needs to HEAR it.
Also, I'm sure he needs to SEE it. How has your PMA been around H lately? I know you've posted that your PMA has been good and you're really enjoying the kids, but what about H? Have you been enjoying him as well?
I ask because I know that my PMA had disappeared in H's presence. I was trying to show it, but it can be extremely difficult when I'm going through those "numb" feelings.
I think with my almost non-existent PMA around H, and H noticing, he very well could be thinking that I haven't forgiven him.
So again I ask you, have you been enjoying H when he's around? Have you said or better yet SHOWN him in YOUR ACTIONS that you have forgiven him?
Quote: He again brought up things I had done in the M.
I agree with NY -- this has to stop.
My H always used to bring up bad stuff from the past. He did this again before coming home the last time (about 2 weeks ago).
When he got home and later asked me what I wanted, I said to H, "I don't know, but I do know that I'm tired. I am tired of pointing fingers and blaming each other for who did what to who. I want to stop doing that. We both know that it doesn't help anything, and all it does is push us farther apart." My H was actually nodding his head in agreement as I was saying this to him. A HUGE step in the right direction.
Quote: He said yes, but let me get straightened out. I need to "get my head out of my butt" (his words not mine).
Sounds like he is acknowledging he has a problem, so give him the time and space to find his way.
Quote: I don't know anymore. Yesterday, I was sad. I just don't know if I want to do this anymore. I do know I will not do anything until summer. I will do that for the kids.
I guess we will wait and see what happens.
I know these feelings, Sherry. Remember what you've told me over and over before? TIME and PATIENCE. You have to have a lot of it.
Try not to put a time limit on this either.
My H wanted to try for a month but then upped it to 2 months when he realized it was too short.....Here we are 3 months later now. It's been a rough ride, but nevertheless, we are still here.
What if your deadline came and you were only a few days away from H being completely back in your M?
Again, I'm not sure if any if this helps, but I just wanted to get it out there.
Thinking of you....
JV
Valerie
"I can't change the direction of the wind, but I can adjust my sails to always reach my destination." ~ author unknown
For her to receive forgiveness, she must show true Remorse, she must Repent and most importantly, take Responsibility for her actions... Really, I'm not bitter
Sounds like you're going to a "christian" counselor as that's always the recipe given for forgiveness based on the Bible.
I'd like to ponder on some things. For you to truly move forward, you'll have to let go of the hurt, and not let what she did hurt you anymore. It goes to where it becomes a memory, but without pain.
Now, you can do that without her showing remorse. But if you let go of the hurt and say it's not going to hurt you anymore, so that you can really truly heal, does that mean you've somehow forgiven her in some way?
Indeed, she may never show remorse. If she doesn't, does that mean you carry a resentment or a hurt or a grudge for the rest of your life, since you're carrying this "unforgiveness" with you, which is bitterness?
If you are going to a faith based counselor, my question is this. While dying, Christ asked God to forgive the people mocking him. Though he said they didn't know what they were doing (meaning that they were mocking the messiah promised them in scripture and in fact was there fulfilling prophecy right before their very eyes, indeed their own actions at that moment were prophesied about), the crowd were adults, and not idiots, and sure knew enough that their behavior wasn't very nice and proper and improperly thought themselves entitled to act that way somehow for whatever reason they gave themselves for it... much like a WAS.
So, those folks didn't show remorse, repent or take responsibility for their actions, yet they were scripturally forgivable. How so?
Sherry, forgive me for the quick Hi-Jack but it wasn't intentional...
NY, I really do appreciate your insight and it makes me take another look at things sometimes. The thing is (and maybe this is something I have to get over) if someone comes up to me on the street and gives me a good stiff kick to the groin and looks at me on the ground laughing, I don't think I forgive that person for the wrong he committed. If that makes me less of a person, whether in God's eyes or in other peoples eyes, I can't help that.
At the risk of being flippant (which is not my intention), I understand that Jesus was perfect but I'm not. I never will be. So for me to sit and look in the mirror , or even look into my WAW's eyes and say that I forgive her for what she has done...it's not going to happen, not now at least.
Thanks for the words though NY, I'm going to climb back onto my own thread where I belong. Sherry, thanks for the rental!
I just pull this off of AJScott's thread in newcomers, I was thinking of you (and me) when I read it...check out his thread.
Quote: There really wasn't any anger to work thru. There was hurt and disappointment for me that she had an emotional and sexual affair, but I was probably more to blame for that than she was. Mostly, our problem was due to a lot of neglect caused by almost 20 years of a million piddly little resentments that should have been buried when they died in the first place. For us (more for my wife, tho), that was the toughest part -- burying those resentments. The only way to do that, tho, is to realize and accept that what was done was done and you can't change yesterday -- but you CAN change today and tomorrow. Putting a stop to blaming each other for a zillion wrongs (both real and perceived) is, to me, THE key to rebuilding your life.
I got on yesterday to post then the phone rang, then H came in. Never got back on.
I had a good Mother's day. My mom sent me flowers at work on Friday. My inlaws sent a card with a gift card inside to buy some clothes because of all the weight I lost. H actually took the kids shopping on Saturday and let them help pick something out, a first. He came to church, then we went out to lunch. H did his thing the rest of the day (played on computer, played drums).
Last week had its ups and downs. H went to our pastor for counseling on Thursday. He didn't tell me about it. Really didn't expect him to, though. I think they are working on the whole anger issue. I am not even sure if he brougt up the A thing or not. He did volunteer that he goes again this Wednesday. That is good.
H has been moody, quick to anger, a grump. I am hoping that is because he is ending it with ow and there contact is lessening. I know I can't hope. Last week he did say he was depressed.
My PMA is good.
Quote: Sherry, HAVE you forgiven him? If so, have you SAID it to him? If not, maybe he needs to HEAR it
Yes, I have told him, more than once.
Quote: How has your PMA been around H lately? I know you've posted that your PMA has been good and you're really enjoying the kids, but what about H? Have you been enjoying him as well?
I ask because I know that my PMA had disappeared in H's presence. I was trying to show it, but it can be extremely difficult when I'm going through those "numb" feelings.
I think with my almost non-existent PMA around H, and H noticing, he very well could be thinking that I haven't forgiven him.
JV, I think you are right about my PMA. It is there for the kids but not always for H. I don't always enjoy my H. That has been hard. I think sometimes I have detached too much. I just go about my business and don't worry about him. I will try to work on that.
H has still been coming home early. He is making an effort to hug and kiss me goodbye in the mornings.
