RE Jo wrote -------- I have been thinking that my case might be painful for those of you who aren't doing so good in the DB'ing stakes and I am considering taking my case off-line and coming back after we've reunited properly so I can post a one-off in the success stories forum. ------------- Jo. Stay on the BB, please. That is if you want to.
I see your point that you had a long lonely time, and many failed attempts before your recent success in dating your H. I agree with you that people want their relationships to be mended in short order and it usually takes a long time for the healing to show fruit.
People here are in pain and don't want to be in pain. One spouse sees the logic of DB'ing and the other spouse can only act in the revenge mode. The DB spouse does not understand how stupid the wayward spouse can be. After all ligic is logic? Right?
Wrong! There is no logic to the running away spouse and the DB'er can't see that. So the DB'er states his or her case here according to what he or she has learned. They think "If I have the right tools I can fix my M". After all a person with the right tools should be able to fix a lot of things. When that does not work what do you do to keep your sanity? You vent here.
Jo I agree with you when you say that you felt used when H was too busy for you but had time for a lot of other people. I worked to much at one time. I don't know if I worked to avoid feeling neglected/not important to my W or my W felt not valued and lost interest in me. Which came first or did they both happen at the same time?
Re Your comment about why people stay together for 20 years in a poor M?
I stayed with my W for the last 5 to 10 years because I bought into the womens rights movement, saying men should allow their wives to do what the wives wanted to do and men were generally inconsiderat. I did not buy this deep down inside me but my W said it was true. W wanted a strong man but if I was strong I was called controlling.
So, I thought maybe some of it is true. W also started to work for a very liberal organization where the general mood was "Do what you want to do and do not listen to anyone else's objections."
I stayed, hoping some of this new behavior would play out and go back to where things were, us as a team. It didn't happen
When things really seemed useless in Jan 04, I decided to fix what I could in me so I did not repeat some of the same mistakes in a/if next repationship, stop being a doormat, and let the chips fall where ever they landed.
It was not until I read several books, read and posted here, W noticed I was serious about breaking up, and I practiced DB'ing that some things turned around for the better.
Like you, there were several failures and I went from being commited to the M, to why try, it's useless. I supppose others have some similar things happening in their M, and that is why they stay. Having children together is anothe "BIG" factor for staying together.
Just my opinion Jo.
--------------- I guess I have just been thinking lately that maybe my posts might be a bit tactless when everyone is going through so much pain and I feel a bit powerless to offer anything except online friendship. ---------------- I think you are posting empathetic advice. I don't see anything that is tactless. Honesty is ysually the best policy.
I also often feel powerless Jo. Especially in cases like TAG's. O, how I wish there were things like crystal balls,so I could see what might work in someones M, but that would be cheating in my books.
Jo Iam violating one of my selfimposed guidelines (going to bed when W does) so I will have to quit for the evening. W went to bed at 10:30 and now it is almost 1AM. I read this is what happened in your M a couple of months befor your H left you.
When my M was deteriorating - well, I think it started when H set up a computer shop. First he went to school to learn how to run a business (I was fine with that) and then when he actually opened the shop, he was working round the clock.
When you run your own business you're there setting up before you open, then it was open till 5.30pm (sometimes till 6pm) then he stay behind doing stock take and collecting deliveries and cleaning up and quite often wouldn't come home till 10pm, that's from being out from 7.30-8am.
He was REALLY enthusiastic about it which I tried to support to start with. He would talk about nothing but computers all the time, our other conversation dried up and he stopped seeing our joint friends because they weren't computer buffs. He made new friends (really nice ones, actually) but nonetheless, wasn't interested in the friends we'd been seeing for 2 years and going out to dinner with every month.
At this same time we had moved house to somewhere much smaller because it was cheaper, and this was a mistake as it was way too small for our needs. I didn't have enough space to run my own business so I ended up working from what was the storeroom of H's shop (1 desk, a chair, a filing cabinet and a photocopier surrounded by boxes and computers, LOL).
Of course this meant that for 2 to 3 days a week, we worked in the same space which I knew was a bad move and told him so, but he insisted upon it to save money. He'd keep leaving computer bits all over my desk and when I'd come in I'd find he'd upset my cash tin so I'd have to hunt round to find all the cheques before I could go to the bank. His assistants (male) both smoked so they were always leaving fag-ends on my desk too (ugh). I tried to ask them to tidy up but they wouldn't so I ended up tidying up the mess of 3 men. Whenever I asked H, he just said 'I'm not the one who smokes.'
I used to buy him cakes as a surprise and bring them to him on his lunch break. Quite often I'd take orders from the 3 of them and go and buy them their favourite sandwiches. They had me off up the road running their errands a couple of times per week, which I didn't mind, but once they started trashing my working space, I felt really used by all of them.
Didn't get 'protection' from H as he didn't stand up for me.
He lost all interest in my work even though he had helped me with it since 1997 (to the point of not caring if it closed). His argument was he earned more than me. I felt as if he was rejecting my financial contribution (which paid for private school fees of our dd's, the water bill, all birthdays, Christmases and family holidays).
I didn't earn as much as him but that wasn't the point.
Then we had 3 very small children which I had basically given birth to one after the other (then ages 5, 4 and 2) and we were 'trying' for a new baby without success for about 8 months, which was adding to the stress.
I did say to him we could wait till dd3 was 5 before we had another, but he said no he wanted one now, so we just carried on 'trying'.
(We always wanted a fairly good sized family, I said 5 or 6, he said 3 or 4 - so we agreed on 4) - we should have spaced them out more in age, tho. If I could go back and do it again I would wait until 20 yrs old to have dd1 and I'd leave a gap of 3 years between all of them.
Anyway, you can imagine how challenging they were, we had drop off's at daycare, I went to mum's and toddler group as well, there was washing for all those little kids, bath times, the supermarket etc and I was trying to cram chores in to the 2 days a week I didn't work, and would still be tidying on Sundays when I was supposed to be relaxing with H and the kids.
The house wasn't as tidy as I wanted and I'd stress over it which would bug H. Now I have a timetable of when I do things, at the time I didn't think of such ideas.
AFTER all this had gradually taken place, he stopped talking to me so much and started going on the internet all night and not going to bed till 2am, then he'd be up at 6.30am while I was still asleep and I'd wake up on my own. We stopped having breakfast together.
We still had sex, but it got a bit mechanical, over in 10 minutes, no hugs, no experimenting, just same old routine. I didn't feel any desire from him, it was as if he just did it because he ought to as my H.
I got pregnant and 5 weeks later he spun me the 'I love you but I'm not in love with you' line and I did all the usual begging, crying etc. He stayed in the house with me until I was 6 months pregnant, then left. I didn't know DB'ing at the time and basically blew it with depression. If I could have known, I would have been able to get him to stay in those 5 months.
Anyway, sorry this has turned into another massive post.
Re my comment about why stay in a bad M for 20 yrs - I meant a sexless M, not just a standard one where there are problems, but one where there is no sex, no kissing, no touch etc as in my opinion that is friendship, not marriage.
I think real feminism is knowing how your man's mind works and through that, being able to get what you need from him without starting a fight or getting on your soap box. That is true feminism. Saying men are all inconsiderate is
1. Just as sexism against men as they are supposed to be against us
and
2. A fault against women for not being able to communicate their wishes to their H.
I think feminism has a lot to answer for the rampent D rate and real feminists have more subtle ways of addressing their needs than fighting.
Last night I emailed ex-OW and told her I am about t introduce her character into the book and asked if I could use her real name.
I also requested that her 17 yr dd pick a name for herself.
She wrote back saying I can use her real name and apparently 17 yr dd wants to be called Rhianne. She asked that I stay in touch with her as she wants to know when I have finished the book and when it is printed etc and that it would be nice to hear from me ocassionally. - crazy, I know.
I have not been in touch since June last year when I told her H had slept with me and they ended their R. I just needed to get her permission to use her actual name.
She has 24 yr bf now and has no idea H is dating me. I would love to be a fly on the wall when she catches on
Today H turned up 2 hours late so most of our time together was eaten into, and I will be having a guest round just in a few minutes so I couldn't ask him to stop and I was in a bit of a hurry.
He was really cheerful though, and wearing this burnt orange jumper which was as cheerful as his mood. He asked me what I'd been up to and I asked him the same and we chatted for a bit.
He commented on DD4's pretty dress and how he liked it. She'd had a bath and hair wash and I'd clipped up her hair and put her in one of those traditional little girl dresses with hand-sewn smocking on the front and she did look absolutely adorable.
DD4 told daddy that she wakes me up every morning and shouts 'get up, mummy, make my breakfast!' and 'stop sleeping!' (it's true, she does!).
H laughed. Then he left, saying he is having a gathering of 13 people later. I said I've got my friend coming round today. He said I bet she's late. I said 'Everyone is always late to my house.' (in a fun way, not a complaining way). He laughed and winked at me and I said I would see all of them on Monday as we are having Easter Bank Holiday Monday together, me, him and all the girls.
So far so good, pity we didn't have more time. Friend is late just as he said!
Jo, Your stories touch our hearts. The are a balm to my open wound. I'll go to my grave never understanding how you, geneva, eyes, or many others her are so kind and my W is so mean? Happy Easter
TAG wrote ---------- I'll go to my grave never understanding how you, geneva, eyes, or many others her are so kind and my W is so mean? ---------- As they say in many Southern Baptiast Churches a loud "Amen to that Brother" or I think I heard "Here, Here" when I watched the British House of Commons or Parliment on the US government C-Span net work.
Ioavva wrote ------------ When you run your own business you're there setting up before you open, then it was open till 5.30pm (sometimes till 6pm) then he stay behind doing stock take and collecting deliveries and cleaning up and quite often wouldn't come home till 10pm -------------- BTDT / me too.
--------- our joint friends because they weren't computer buffs ----------- same here.
-------- I ended up tidying up the mess of 3 men. ---------- I can see where your resentments came from.
----------- I would wait until 20 yrs old to have dd1 and I'd leave a gap of 3 years between all of them. --------- Good plan Jo. Too bad we cant have "do over" privilege.
---------- started going on the internet all night and not going to bed till 2am, then he'd be up at 6.30am ------------ Ouch! that hurt. I am guilty! I guess my W is right, all men are alike.... ( Jo I only wrote like this in a humorous way. I see so many problems that are common in M's)
------------ Anyway, sorry this has turned into another massive post. --------------- Jo, Never be sorry for writing the truth or how events in your M caused you to feel. I say some of this stuff has to be worked through so we can get past it and grow.
------------ I think feminism has a lot to answer for the rampent D rate and real feminists have more subtle ways of addressing their needs than fighting. ------------- I think some feminist ideas are good but I see how the movement contributes to the increase D rate.
In the US there are some women's groups talking about some of the damages that the feminist movement has caused. The group trys to teach women to be better wives, how to influence men to be better H's and fathers. It's less blame oriented and more behivior modification or skills learning to improve the M.
Your W is mean because of the stage she's going through.
If it helps I will write some really mean things my H said to me so you can see she won't stay mean always:
1. He told me the last 3 yrs of our M were 'a waste of time'.
2. He told me to get an abortion of Alisha (that really hurt).
3. Called me a 'sad dysfunctional little woman'.
4. Told the court he wanted the baby because I can't carry her due to disability.
5. Shouted at me to 'get out my house, you bitch!''
These are of course just a few.
But it DOES pass and it took OW to make him realise that 'no one else does it like you' (his words) and 'you're so clever, she just doesn't have your knowledge.'
Even if you only stay platonic with W, there will eventually come a time when her anger passes and you can at least be friends.
As you all know my friend came round today and she has the same spiritual conviction as me and H do (pure coincidence, I had no idea until I got to know her a bit more).
She is also D from her ex-H due to him beating her up so she's been going through hell the same as me. She has been DB'ing on herself and now has a job as an aromatherapist and a new bf called Richard.
She knows about me and H seeing each other (my 1 of 2 friends that know).
She has invited me and H together as a couple to go to her house for beers and meditation and have an evening just having a laugh. She invited us both overnight.
I secretly thought there is no chance he will agree to that but I instant messaged him and told him we'd been invited over and he actually said 'Cool' and 'yes'!! I don't know whether he'll do overnight yet, that might be a bit full on for him, but he said 'yes' and said we'd iron out the details an arrange a time to meet her on Monday when he is coming over for the bank holiday.
- crazy, I know.