Why Would a Married Man Do This?

[Corri]

NOP:

If people were capable of walking around the planet, taking full responsibility for all their actions, we would need no laws. Each of us is ultimately responsible for our actions, in that we must answer for them, but there is no one perfect on this planet

So, because we are incapable of FULLY accepting responsibility for our own actions in every instance, this exonerates us from accepting ANY responsibility for our own actions? C'mon, NOP, we all do the best we can. But just because I can't be perfect at it ALL the time does not let me off the hook for failed attempts or botched choices, now does it?

My statement is also NOT a 'morals cop'. I personally don't care what your, or anyone else's morals are, as long as your choices don't impact others.

Every single choice I make, every single action I take, will have an impact, cause a reaction from some one or some thing on some level. No one or anything acts independently. Not even in a vaccum.

Meat shopping in a bar does impact others, I don't care if 'everyone else is doing it' or not. That isn't policing morals, that is simply a bad idea - common sense.

If I am a married person heading out to a bar with the intent on going 'meat shopping,' shame on me. If I flirt and get myself into a non-intended but sticky situation nevertheless, I hope I am intelligent enough to learn something from it. Does that mean I never go out with my girlfriends to a bar? Jesus, I hope not, or I've become my own jailer.

I am talking about common sense, Corri, not morals or fear. If you are high or drunk, you are much more likely to make a responsibility mistake than if you are working with a clear mind.

No offense, dear man, because I do love you, but this is not the level to which I am referring, nor do I think Dave is either. This is pretty elementary, don't you think? This is a lecture I deliver to my teenager, not a peer or a spouse. If I have to deliver this type of information to my peer or my spouse, the problems are going far beyond common sense issues.

Unless you are there to get laid, a bar is a dumb place to exercise your lack of "fusion", regardless of how enlightened, or how "differentiated" a person thinks they are.

Well, I would probably agree, but it is a matter of opinion. Why can't I try out my lack of fusion in a bar and NOT get laid at the same time? Because I am trying out my lack of fusion in a bar, does that mean I AM there to get laid? Why? Because I like going to a bar to play trivia games or watch football with my buddies, does that mean I am violating my marital vows? You're saying the only reason to go into a bar 'sans spouse' is to get laid? Really?

Lastly, I am not suggesting that they should be attached at the hip. I AM suggesting that rather than 'differentiation' or 'fusion', they are dangerously close to a lack of basic respect for each other.

If one or the other has voiced a problem with it, sure, I'd agree. But why would a spouse have a problem with the other spouse being in a bar without them? Who's issue is it? If I am 'policing' my spouse, who's got the respect issue, me or him?

Change happens from the inside out, NOP, not because I'm riding coach on my spouse's azz. If I AM riding coach on his azz, he's more than likely going to change temporarily, just to get me OFF his azz, not because dawn has broken over Mt. Marblehead.

It is my personal opinion that BECAUSE Dave and his W have given each other the freedom to explore and find themselves within a mutually AGREED UPON arena, they have given themselves the best opportunity to realign their trust and honesty with one another out of free choice, not marital mandate or religious ethic/code.

Freedom of choice is an amazing, incredibly heavy burden, an awesome responsibility that most of us never truly experience. And you know exactly what I am talking about because you gave your own example not too long ago with the 'set up' you put on your wife. You robbed her of a choice because you manipulated a situation, and thankfully you realized it... not because she whacked you over the head, or rode 'coach' on your azz, but because you had the freedom to either listen or ignore your conscience, and then make a choice.

Cathy:

I think Dave answered for himself rather well. I'm not saying that what Dave is discussing is necessarily the optimum, but let's be honest, how many of us have really and truly figured out 'who we are' before we got married? And what if that 'who we are' changes over the years? (which it probably will). How do you figure that out? What happens when you confront yourself with changes you didn't even realize were in there yourself if you cannot openly and honestly discuss and explore that with your spouse?

In lieu of a divorce, what I see occuring is the two of them giving each other the maximum amount of trust and space negotiated between them to find their RE-negotiated boundaries and happiness. They have ground rules. What happens if one of them bothces that? Well, I suppose they will either get divorced or figure it out, just like anyone else.

Corri

[unsure70]

I normally don't post in this forum but your thread caught my eye (yes something I deal with as well...except my H and I still have sex together)

I may have missed this as I skimmed through the several responses but here was my initial thought:

He knows he does not satisfy you sexually, you are not attracted to him...he can be whatever he wants to be online...sexy and attractive with no worries about really satisfying his "partner" They tell him what he wants to hear and vice versa...he can be a sex god and they may have multiple orgasms...definitely an ego boost for a man who doesn't satisfy his w (or his exw).

When I found my H was doing this he told me it fulfilled a sexual and intimacy need I wasn't (me being the LD partner again is different from your sitch).

Just a thought, would you want to have sex with someone who told you you didn't satisfy them??

Unsure

[NHTom]

And I have a different spin on this as well.

My GUESS is that now that he has you he doesn't want you. He's looking for his next conquest. He is not low drive, but either normal drive or even high drive. He MB because he doesn't want to be with you. He may be sticking around only because of your daughter.

This is instructive to me - it's helping me to figure some stuff out. We start with the assumption that our spouses actually want to be with us and have a good marriage and are willing to make it work. This is not necessarily the case.

When the spouse isn't engaged in the marriage process the trick is to become strong, independent and somehow get that knife out of your heart. Being distant and out of reach is irresistable to some people. Still, I don't like playing such games.

Anyway, TWYNALTR.
Tom

[cally]

Honey,

Yes for sure I am prepared to leave the marriage if things don't improve. I am prepared to set boundaries. I have set some boudaries but don't think I am doing it right or he just don't listen to anything. I have told him I didn't want him masturbating. I asked him to let himself see if his appetite would return to normal if he did this. I asked him to come to me for sexual release if he needed one even if it meant he just wanted a hand job or me to masturbate him. I have told him any kind of sexual contact I have with him is fullfilling to me even if it is a quicky. But he still choses the MB more then we have sex.

I have also asked him in the past if we could set the number of times we have sex to twice a week. Waaaay more often then not that never happens.

It always seems though if I put consequences on him he gets defensive and says leave if your not happy. His famous saying I won't kiss your butt but uses the other word.

[cally]

Cathy,

You gave some great advice. It may be the same but let me explain what I mean by not satisfying me sexually. When we have sex he is very giving and a good lover. So the cat itself is satisfying and I always tell him this. It is the quantity that don't sexually satisfy me.

You put this in perspective for me. Your right I don't do any good by belittling him. That is my biggest fault. I have just gotten to this point where I am so angry and bitter. It even scares me. It's like I just don't know what to do anymore accept just end the marriage.

[cally]

Tom you said,
My GUESS is that now that he has you he doesn't want you. He's looking for his next conquest. He is not low drive, but either normal drive or even high drive. He MB because he doesn't want to be with you. He may be sticking around only because of your daughter.


This could be true and really hurts to think it might be. Because why get married. Why stay married. There is always the option of leaving. If a person is miserable it just doesn't make sense to stay.

That is what I am in the process of trying to do is become strong again. Be more independent. And overall just be happy and smile more. I won't let the marriage troubles consume me anymore. I refuse to say anything to him anymore. He is his own person and he will have to answer for his own actions. For instance last night he made this huge alcoholis drink to take to WORK. Last time I talked about ending the marriage he started drinking heavy also which is out of the ordinary. Claimed he didn't care but yet was drinking and even bringing drinks to work. I pointed out that what if he got fired or got hurt there and they did a drug and alcohol test that he would be fired. I even would take the drink and pour it out. This time I didn't say a word. I figure he is a big boy. HE and only HE will answer if there is a consequence for it.

[honeypot]

Because I am trying out my lack of fusion in a bar, does that mean I AM there to get laid?

Why else would he have taken his wedding ring off? Going to a bar to have fun is one thing but deliberately misleading a woman you are talking to is another thing. In addition to that, his wife had no knowledge that he was out doing this so it was NOT an attempt to display his lack of fusion. In fact, I would question whether he is truly differentiated from her if he needs other validation from women in bars.

But why would a spouse have a problem with the other spouse being in a bar without them?

I would have no problem with my spouse going to a bar without me. I would find it suspicious if he didn't tell me he was going and then told me after the fact that he took his wedding ring off and tried to pass himself off as a swingin single man. He doesn't need my "permission" to go to a bar, but I would consider it common courtesy, I suppose.

It is my personal opinion that BECAUSE Dave and his W have given each other the freedom to explore and find themselves within a mutually AGREED UPON arena, they have given themselves the best opportunity to realign their trust and honesty with one another out of free choice, not marital mandate or religious ethic/code.

I would agree with this, except all this "free choice" came about AFTER he made a ghastly decision to sow his oats for the night. So how free is it? How much freedom of choice did his wife really have that night?

How do you figure that out?

I would hope that we would all go about figuring out these changes, which are an inevitable part of life, with respect and love towards our mate. To me, there is NOTHING differentiated about playing games with your M, and nothing further differentiated about a spouse who is so detached that they are ok with it.

I understand that he has a lot of insecurity-type baggage that he is hauling around but the fact that he couldn't FIRST go to his spouse and say, Hey I am struggling with something... demonstrates to me that he is not nearly as de-fused as he thinks he is.

H.

[NotATLDave]

1. Why else would he have taken his wedding ring off?
2. I would consider it common courtesy, I suppose
3. a spouse who is so detached that they are ok with it.

Gotcha! You just assigned "meaning" to actions and am making assumptions based upon your own values, feelings, etc. If you were my W, I would now ask you to repeat back what I've been saying to ensure that you really heard what I was saying. Because, with your response, you are saying one of two things...that you didn't understand anything I said -or- that I'm a liar. You are entitled to believe what you want but I have no reason to lie here.

Let me address the first quote.

We have a divorced neighbor who comes over to tell us about all of her boyfriend problems. She says stuff like "he did such-and-such, therefore he must not really be into me". I've been around groups of women where this seems to spiral into a feeding frenzy of validation, etc. My W, prior to our therapy, *would* validate her. Now my W says stuff like..."well, maybe he just wanted to do such-and-such...why should that have anything to do with you?". Then she would respond "but boyfriends *shouldn't* act that way"...as if there is some big rule book. In reality, she doesn't have enough esteem to say "this is my rule, my boundary and it really hurt me that he did that". The problem is that the confrontation of the boyfriend's action doesn't come from the right angle. She thinks he's bad and she punishes him rather than making herself vulnerable and discussing the fact that certain things bother her. I've even tried to get her to understand this but I think some folks are either too emotional or don't have the capacity to "get it".

honey, I'm sorry for using you to make this point.

Let me add one more thing to this pot. My W and I have always had an incredibly high degree of independence and trust. That hasn't changed. Actually, my W has always been the easy-going one without a lot of internal rules (but then again, she doesn't seem to have a huge dynamic range of emotions either). I'm the one whose coming to grips with these ideas because I used to assign tons of meaning to others actions. Hell, the rejection people feel on this board when their spouse won't have sex with them is a product of this. As someone who no longer "feels" pain when his spouse rejects him, I can san say that the process takes a while. It starts with learning how to think. Developing faith that your new thoughts are correct. Then confronting bad feelings with these new thoughts. Eventually, the bad feelings just don't happen anymore.

[MJontheMend]

As someone who no longer "feels" pain when his spouse rejects him

But do you magically feel no longer horny too? On a couple of my better, more rational, less feeling-the-pain days recently, my H has rejected me and I haven't felt emotionally upset but I've still felt like someone with a healthy, horny body who is missing out on one of the joys of living. Probably I need to get to the place where this is my consistent reaction as opposed to weepy, neediness and finally take action like the example in Schnarch and tell my H "I reeeeeeeeeally want to get laid tonight. I'll be at the bar down the street if you decide to get in the mood.".

[StubbornDyke]

I have set some boudaries but don't think I am doing it right or he just don't listen to anything. I have told him I didn't want him masturbating....

Those sound more like demands, which are controlling and violate H's boundaries. While it might be aggravating given the circumstances, I really think that it is none of your business if he masturbates (and the only reason that you care is that you're not getting the sexual attention you want). A boundary would be deciding what you will tolerate about something that is your business, and deciding how you will take care of yourself. Boundaries are about dealing with other people's behavior by controlling YOUR behavior. (For example: My goal is for H to be willing to have sex with me. I will try XXX and if it doesn't work, then I will try something else or seek other ideas. If I have put in all the effort I can and there are no positive results, then I will XXX.)

We would never expect a date to even hang out with us, let alone kiss us, if we were acting angry, critical, controlling, and demanding. How can we expect a spouse to want to ML to us when we're like that? You can jump up and down and scream all you want. That might work for getting him to take out the garbage, but I can't imagine it will ever work for getting any kind of intimacy.

What does H need in order to feel comfortable ML, or even comfortable in the R? What are his LLs? How are you filling his love tank? Have you considered that he may be feeling sucked dry with nothing left to give? Maybe not, but it's safest to check your own house before you start throwing stones.

As Michele points out, what we think "should" work is rarely what actually does work. I wish you success in getting past anger and "shoulds" to finding real solutions.