No threats intended, just the facts as I see them.
You have posted before about your interest in swinging.
My point about your wife's ease of meeting men versus yours, was simply that she will ultimately encounter more opportunity. How sure are you of her strength?
I don't know what is going on in your life, but I have read all your posts here since the beginning, and it seems to me that your moral base has taken a serious hit.
So, I am not trying to make you scared. I AM trying to make you wake up.
If you and your wife are 'practice playing' at bars, then you are traveling on a dangerous road, Dave. I have been down the swinging road.
Before MrsNOP and I were married, I almost got her involved. There was another couple over, we had watched an adult film (and yes, they were films back then, no VCRs) and things started heating up. I had set the situation up, basically set her up. Up until that point in time, she had little idea of how I had spent much of my time, and had no idea of exactly what was about to transpire.
That 'little voice' spoke to me right before things were going to get serious. I listened, and basically ended the 'party'. You have no idea, just how glad I am that she never got introduced to that lifestyle.
Dave, I had never taken anyone I cared about to a 'party' before. I had already seen what a mess 'parties' made out of other peoples lives. Here I was just about to ruin the best thing that ever happened to me - MrsNOP.
You had talked about, in a post a good while back, watching your wife kissing another girl at a bar. Your reaction, as I recall, was not one of anger or frustration. My impression is that you were confused, but mostly liked the idea.
I think that you are setting your wife up to cheat on you, possibly inadvertently, possibly because you have ulterior motives. What I think you need to do instead, is to negotiate a reasonable boundary with her. No singles activities at a bar. If she goes, you go, if you go, she goes, otherwise, neither of you go. No third parties in your relationship.
During our marriage, my business has caused me to travel to many places. I have frequented untold numbers of bars and strip clubs, all in the name of business. I have seen people do all kinds of things, make all kinds of mistakes. Even with my background and experience, I still had little business being in those places. It is like bumper cars at an amusement park, you are going to get hit on. You might want to spend some time considering what your real motivations for playing single in a bar, are.
So, you can listen to a little bit of hard earned wisdom from me, or you can go it on your own. You and I have a bit of history on this forum, as such, I thought it worthwhile to get your attention.
Please be careful with yourself, your wife and your kids. You seem like good people to me, and I would really hate to see you or your family hurt.
All the best,
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I happen to agree with most of what Dave has posted here. Of what Dave is speaking is when two people have taken complete responsibility for themselves, their own thoughts/actions/motivations, and love and trust their spouses enough for them to do the same.
If I have to be with my spouse 24/7 to ensure or safeguard his/her potential actions, that is NOT a relationship, that is a 'morals cop.' You are now 'parenting' your spouse, not having a relationship. AND... potential affairs can happen anywhere, not just in a bar. This is fear-based behavior of which you are speaking, NOP, not behavior born of trust.
We are all adults and we all have choices we make each and every day. If I can't handle myself in a bar, then I had best not go into a bar. That is MY choice, MY responsibility, not my spouse's. It's called personal accountability, and one of the MAIN reasons we are all here is because one or both spouses in our relationships are having a real hard time with that concept.
I know you've been around the block a few times NOP, and you've seen a lot of things. I understand why you are urging caution... and it would be extremely dangerous for a FUSED couple to attempt what Dave is talking about...
but Dave is NOT referring to a FUSED couple. He is speaking of two people who have taken responsibility for themselves - NOT THEIR SPOUSE - in the relationship. They trust each other to do what is best for their relationship based upon the things they have discussed and agreed upon. If it works, great. If it doesn't -- sad, but fine -- and, they are working with a professional C while doing this.
Not every relationship can handle what Dave is discussing. There are some people on this planet who HAVE to be FUSED to their spouse because they can not or will not take the time to fix themselves on the inside. Not everyone here will agree with what Dave is saying, and that is cool, but that does not make him wrong, nor does it mean is he or his wife are now morally deficient. It does not mean that either one of them will have an affair, or that they won't, any more than it would for spouses who constantly monitor each other.
The only main difference I see in this Schnarch approach is that the spouses look one another in the eye and say "yes, I am responsible for me in this relationship, just as you are responsible for you. Let's keep all our cards above board and on the table and see where we can take this relationship."
It doesn't mean the relationship is going to survive, it doesn't mean it will be better or worse than any other. But it is my personal opinion that this horse has the best shot at winning.
I feel Dave's relationship may be at a place of openness and trust where this kind of exploration can enhance intimacy; I myself am not there yet and feel more comfortable with more established boundaries. Bringing the thread back to Cally, her marriage is not a "team"...her H has been isolating himself and has not shown much attention to her needs...her being understanding of his behavior just feels wrong.
Wow Thanks for all the responses to this thread. It has given me a lot to think about.
I don't feel like I try to to be to controling of my husband. He has had playboy magazines and I never said a word. He has looked at porno on the web or even a video. I haven't said anything. I have watched the movies with him. He has commented on a pretty girl before on television. I don't get offended. But to look at a dating site and be searching our areas is just so off limits to me.
I agree with what some have said about masturbation and that it is wrong to tell your spouse they should not do this. I know masturbation is normal for both sexes. But to do it in place of having an intimate relationship with a spouse is wrong to me. To do it when you know your spouse is unfullfilled is wrong to me. To do it in the middle of an evening when your spouse is right there wanting you is wrong to me.
Well, I did confront him and it led to a huge blow up. He said he only looked at this site to see if I was watching what he was doing on the web. Seems like a weird and lame excuse. My husband doesn't like to be wrong about anything. So therefore if he has done something he often will lie right to my face. He tries to turn the tables onto me and pout me to blame for everything in our marriage.
Like paying bills he claims he don't like the way I do it. So I told him by all means take it over. Then he will have an excuse for that. Our kid's are in school and he wanted me to work. So I got a job and he complains about that. It's not enough hours, not enough pay. Well, I was out of the work force for a long time raising our children. I have to start somewhere and gain experience and a work history again. Mean time I can look for something better. But it's a start and I was proud of myself. But he puts me down.
The sex thing..interesting. His ex wife has told people that he didn't satisfy her sexually. I confronted him about that. She also cheated on him during the marriage. I told him what am I supposed to think when it's the same thing I would say. He said she is just a liar. She is the one who didn't want sex. He use to come home from work every night and try to get it all the time. He was always after it. I said well what was it about her because I consider myself better looking. He said I had a sex drive back then. Then I noticed lately he has been checking up on me. He wrote down the password and screen name for this account. He has been on the web checking around as to what I am doing daily when I am not here. He checks the phone ID a lot when typically he never looks at it or answers calls. He has been angry it seems when I go out. I have taken some advice here and I am trying to work on me. So I have went out with friends a couple times. Went out with family, etc. Just getting out again and smiling and doing things I use to enjoy. So I told him I could understand why he would be insecure that he would be checking up on me. Because he does know that he don't satisfy me sexually and I haven't wanted or even spoke about having sex with him in two weeks. I told him if you have a question or concern just ask me. He blew up at this. Telling me isn't insecure and doesn't give a darn what I am doing. Repeating often that he don't care. I said then why write down my password and screen name for a site I visit. He said only because I was curious. I don't even know the web site. Then he said the reason he doesn't have sex with me is because he doesn't want to. I told me I am a Bi***. And that is why he don't want to. He said that is the reason he can't get an erection. I told him it don't matter if I am vocal and lash out at him over this. Or if I am sweet and silent. None of it matters I have tried everything. I also pointed out that this has been going on for 8 years. And the first year and half of that I was working making good money and wasn't around him that much to have him mad at me. Back then I cleaned the house, did all the yard work, ran all the errands and did all the shopping. I went to all the kid's conferences and volunteered at their school during the day. And still tried to make time for him. Like running him lunch at work, etc. I was plain wore out from doing everything myself. There was no team playing. So today I am at a loss. He blames everything one me for everything. He thinks he is perfect and does no wrong. I really think it is a hopeless situation. I left for work yesterday crying. And he said yeah it hurts doesn't it.
Forgot to mention something else. My husband was talking to our daughter who is 15. She asked him if we were fighting. He said yes. If your mom is unhappy and wants out I won't stand in her way. She said where has mom been going lately. He said I don't know she doesn't tell anyone. Which last time I went out they knew exactly who I was with or what I was doing. I am only trying to change the fact that my husband and I usually do everything together. So that is what the kid's are used to. I want to be more independent and do things I use to love. Have an outside life apart from him.
Well, during this long conversation he tells daughter there is a 20 year old at work that flirts with him. That he could have her anytime!! I was SOOO ticked! I told him and confronted him. I said our daughter is not your bar room buddy to discuss something like that. Daughter told him that is gross your old enough to be her dad. I think his only intent on this was to try somehow to make me jealous. Which I wasn't at all.
Cally, What are your plans as far as creating a boundary with your H?
Are you willing to leave the M if things don't improve?
I have to say that I've had some sympathy for him..due to the erectile difficulties..but that FLEW out the window with this latest discussion with your daughter. That is inappropriate to the nth degree. I would no longer feel safe with him in charge of her, alone. It sounds like his judgement is getting cloudier and cloudier.
I would think about setting a boundary and presenting it to him. Then follow through if he decides to engage in any more risky behavior than he already has.
I try to never deal or live in fear, only facts and potentialities. I personally hate fear. I certainly don't want to bully anyone.
If people were capable of walking around the planet, taking full responsibility for all their actions, we would need no laws. Each of us is ultimately responsible for our actions, in that we must answer for them, but there is no one perfect on this planet.
My statement is also NOT a 'morals cop'. I personally don't care what your, or anyone else's morals are, as long as your choices don't impact others. Meat shopping in a bar does impact others, I don't care if 'everyone else is doing it' or not. That isn't policing morals, that is simply a bad idea - common sense.
I agree that we should all observe our personal responsibilities. Exactly how does one know precisely how much to drink before ones inhibitions drop to the floor? How much can one drink, on any given day before that person is legally unfit to drive? How often are innocent people killed by drunk drivers?
I am talking about common sense, Corri, not morals or fear. If you are high or drunk, you are much more likely to make a responsibility mistake than if you are working with a clear mind.
Unless you are there to get laid, a bar is a dumb place to exercise your lack of "fusion", regardless of how enlightened, or how "differentiated" a person thinks they are.
As for Dave's situation being special in some way, I disagree. Maybe he and his wife are close to some Schnarchian version of sainthood, but brother and sister Theresa, they aren't.
Lastly, I am not suggesting that they should be attached at the hip. I AM suggesting that rather than 'differentiation' or 'fusion', they are dangerously close to a lack of basic respect for each other.
I hope you are doing well, Corri. I have missed hearing from you.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Explain something to me cause I'm failing to understand. I may be way off base in my thinking on this...wouldn't be the first time! I'm a bit bothered by some of what Dave says but not because I think it is a moral issue. What Dave and his wife decide to do for themselve or in their marriage is their business and I can't judge them for their choices. You said...
Quote: Not every relationship can handle what Dave is discussing. There are some people on this planet who HAVE to be FUSED to their spouse because they can not or will not take the time to fix themselves on the inside.
Dave has openly admitted that the bar games he plays is an attempt to deal with some insecurities he has. It helps him feel good to go to a bar and get the attention of attractive females. He wants to be pursued because the pursuit helps him feel better about himself.
How does Dave playing these games in bars equate to him being fixed internally? Isn't he out with singles in bars, getting what he can't get at home because he is unable to come to term with his own insecurities?
It all sounds good on the surface. I mean, hell, if you have a couple who are secure in who they are and what they have together and neither one has a problem with this kind of activity then, so be it. I don't see that as being the situation here.
The same insecurities in himself that were causing some of the issues with his wife are the reason he is out in bars. So, he has been able to differentiate from his wife because he can now go out and get the attention in bars that he wasn't getting at home.
I'm not sure that, that behavior is a behavior that is going to strengthen his marriage or, in anyway enable him to work on what is going on inside himself. Truthfully, it seems to be a cop out and an excuse for not focusing on the actual work that needs to be done to strengthen his internal problems and, in turn his marriage. Cathy
Quote: Because he does know that he don't satisfy me sexually and I haven't wanted or even spoke about having sex with him in two weeks.
OUCH!! I'm not sure you will get far with someone by telling them they don't satisfy you sexually Cally. All that does is put him on the defensive and he will dig his heals in further.
The man seems to have a HUGE problem. He seems to be more interested, right now, in letting his pride and denail over his problems take importance over the damage he is doing to himself, you and the marriage.
The only thing I can tell you is that his angry response is probably due to extreme insecurity in his own ability to satisfy you or any other woman for that matter.
I still say you can't do your marriage or your husband any good until you are able to see it from his perspective. He is driven by fear, pride, shame and other negative emotions because I can't imagine that he thinks much of himself as a man.
Belittling him and his manhood is not going to encourage him to open up about what he is feeling. Don't internalize his anger and the things he says. It all comes from his own insecurities and you need to be smarter than him in this situation.
He is being a jerk because it is easier than admitting he might be failing in his manly duties...he has this idea in his head of what a man is suposed to feel and be able to do sexually and it just isn't happening for him.
I'm betting he is constantly confronting it himself in his head. You need to figure out a gentler way of drawing him out or all you are going to get is his stubborn pride and anger in response. Cathy
(cally, I apologize in a big way for hijacking your thread like this.)
Hey Cathy,
I'll pop in on this and maybe respond to a few others at the same time. Whew, this has spiraled into something it never intended to be but it's interesting to hear these responses.
This thread has made me think really hard about what we've been doing and why it's happening "now" in the midst of therapy and all the other changes. Both of our behavior can be explained by this.
When you finally get whacked in the head with a 2x4 that says "YOU ARE THE MASTER OF YOUR OWN LIFE" after 15 years of thinking you weren't, you have HAVE to figure out exactly who the f%ck you really are. You want to see what your own personal boundaries are and you need to learn how you respond to things inside and outside the marriage. This will give you the strength to know what you can bring in, and what to expect from your spouse.
Here's An Example of What I Mean...... I still carry the insecurities I had when I was dating my W. I've discussed these with the C who says I've got a long, expensive journey if I want to try to fix these because they are related to being adopted. I partially married my W out of a fear of rejection and an easy way to forget/ignore these demons. My first trip to the nightclub (when I played single) was an attempt to open up box where I stored these insecurities. I didn't even talk to anyone except people in my group during this time. The next few times out, I was clearly "a married guy" and simply engaged on a social level with various people...there was nothing sexual about it. It gave me just enough "I'm alright by myself" juice to recognize that I'm not just hanging onto my R because I'm scared. It also made me realize that I actually have options. I never asked for phone numbers because I'm not trying to do anything other than "feel my feelings" in that moment.
When talking to folks, I had a baseline anxiety that I got to "manage"...this was cool. I practiced expressing my own opinion, views and even disagreed with others...which I've never had the guts to do because I always wanted to be included. I *did* notice that being included made me less likely to express contrary views...this is exactly how Schnarch described that "when a person becomes more important to you, you usually become less differentiated" (which is wrong and bad). It's been an incredible journey and I share all of this stuff with my W. Sure, it would be great to work on all these things while under one roof but it's easier to do it alone.
Through these activities, I've taken suppressed insecurities, brought them out of their box, and made peace with them. They still linger but at least I know what I'm dealing with.
This whole process has felt much more like a rebuilding from the ground up. We *safely* asserted ourselves like were were "single" again, and have now moved back towards each other as 2 individuals instead of the fused couple that we were. If my moral-center was sliding, I would be acting more "single" with each subsequent excursion, instead of the acting more "married".
I'm not saying life at our house is hunky dory now. Sometimes we are scratching our heads, wondering how we are going to deal with these (now much clearer) differences.
Hey NOP, I hear (and heard) you on the swinging thing (but, damn, all you boomers got to have all the fun ). Seriously, I actually know my boundaries in that area because of some things that happened in our early years. I won't go into details but my guess is that I "think" I would be gung-ho to try it but actually freak out afterwards. My W on the other hand would be terrified to try it but be fine afterwards. You (and others I've heard) are right...it's like opening up a can of worms. It's still just fascinates the hell out of me how the successful ones do it just like it's fascinating to watch Michael Jordon.
Cally,
I feel real bad about your situation and offer my condolences. It sounds like your husband has lost his mojo if he's saying crap like "I understands if she leaves me". It sounds like he doesn't have the strength to pull the trigger and wants you to do it for him. It definately sounds like he's "checked out" of the marriage in his mind. I'm sorry if that hurts. I'm not very good at "feel good" talk here. Here you go...(((cally)))...does a virtual hug help...maybe? I wish you strength and the best of luck.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
It has given me a lot to think about.
I left for work yesterday crying. And he said yeah it hurts doesn't it. 
). Seriously, I actually know my boundaries in that area because of some things that happened in our early years. I won't go into details but my guess is that I "think" I would be gung-ho to try it but actually freak out afterwards. My W on the other hand would be terrified to try it but be fine afterwards. You (and others I've heard) are right...it's like opening up a can of worms. It's still just fascinates the hell out of me how the successful ones do it just like it's fascinating to watch Michael Jordon.