Why Would a Married Man Do This?

[Julie33]

Cally, I went back and read a few of your old posts to get the full picture. It seems to me that your H is depressed and struggling with feelings of inadequacy. I agree with HP that he is already disconnected. His telling you to ‘Pack your sh*t and get out’ is cruel and disrespectful. His crying at his inability to perform is a huge red flag, and a big clue to his state of mind. There is a lot more going on here than just a clash of libidos.

I don’t feel qualified to give you any advice and I think some individual counseling for you (even if he won’t go) would really help you. I just want you to know that I feel for you, and even though I have never been in your precise situation, I have been in a situation where I have felt completely helpless, and it is tough. I do know that an affair is not the answer, and will only get you deeper into the morass.

I think you are getting some significant insights here, but I also know that right now it is going to be very difficult for you to process these.

Good luck, my dear.
Julie

[Julie33]

What an interesting thread! Dave, you came back and stirred the pot quite nicely. I am fascinated by this subject because I have similar thoughts on this. I have never objected to my H masturbating or looking at porn, over the years, even when our SL had gone to sh*t. I didn’t see the porn/MB as being causative of anything, rather I saw it as the symptom of the problem. Instinctively, long before I read the books or these threads, I knew that I didn’t own his mind, body, hand or penis. I also know him and know that he would never intentionally do this to hurt me. I believe this was important and maybe even vital to our recovery.

I find your suggestion very interesting – ask your spouse to share the sexual energy, regardless of what the activity might be. I don’t feel strongly enough about this to create a boundary here – I would never tell him that he could only surf porn if he invited me to do it with him. I did try out a variation and it led to a nice, connected moment. I will update and elaborate in my own thread.

NOP, I don’t think anyone is arguing that there need to be boundaries in a sexual relationship that are mutually acceptable. I think Dave is making the point that, sometimes, those boundaries aren’t the obvious ones that society expects us to have. We all have deep, dark places inside of us and we can either choose to share them with our spouse or pretend that they don’t exist. What is the point of communication if we are only allowed to say what our spouse wants to hear?

What this means is that both spouses must be willing to take a moment to examine where their true boundaries lie. This means sifting through the initial reactions, which are often due to insecurity (as Cathy correctly pointed out), and finding out what is ethically acceptable to us. Just MHO.

Julie

[NOPkins]

Hi, Julie.

quote:
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NOP, I don’t think anyone is arguing that there need to be boundaries in a sexual relationship that are mutually acceptable. I think Dave is making the point that, sometimes, those boundaries aren’t the obvious ones that society expects us to have. We all have deep, dark places inside of us and we can either choose to share them with our spouse or pretend that they don’t exist. What is the point of communication if we are only allowed to say what our spouse wants to hear?
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My point is exactly that the boundaries need to be negotiated. So, I am missing exactly what point it is that you disagree with me on.

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[Julie33]

My point is exactly that the boundaries need to be negotiated. So, I am missing exactly what point it is that you disagree with me on.

Hi NOP,

I wasn’t really disagreeing with you. I felt that both Dave and you have valid points, and was trying to explore the gray area in between, based on my own experience and feelings at this time. My question about communication wasn’t intended for you personally, and I apologize if my ramblings came across as such.

Best,
Julie

[NotATLDave]

Boy, I feel a big flame attack coming towards me.

You went 'shopping' in a bar. Does your wife know about your 'experiment' or how you spent your time there?

Yes...and she knows about the recent trips as well.

Would she approve?

I told her about it and she approves as long as I don't actually go home with someone. She has come to grips with the fact that her personality doesn't support the concept of "pursuit" in many categories - sex, intimacy, etc. (wanting to want is a huge problem for her). It's the "pursuit" that I really want...not the sex. So in her definition of *our* marital boundaries, "flirting" is fine.

How would you feel if she had gone to a bar and experimented at getting picked up, or even 'just noticed' by a guy or four? What are your boundaries?

The Short Answer - is that she has "girls nights out" where they let guys buy drinks for them and I even heard reports of her dancing with a group of guys...I actually thought it was great when I heard about it. I have the same boundary not to go home with someone. Even if she traveled alone somewhere and went to a bar alone I'd be extremely proud of her for overcoming her paralyzing shyness.

Now, I will also say this...I don't like to entertain the "what would *you* think if she did what you did" because it doesn't work that way. If I hated the idea of her having guys buy drinks for her but she thought it was fun, then there would be a big problem. She would either do it secretly or not do it all, OR I would let her go out and just deal with my own discomfort. In either case, a give-take is happening. We just don't have a problem with this.

Now, in the back of my mind, I keep thinking "this is just weird...I shouldn't be doing this". I think she probably felt the same way about one trip with the girlfriends because she didn't tell me anything about that night except that 2 guys picked up their $120 bar tab. But we've recently gotten more candid and I realized that sharing our stories brings the intimacy back into the marriage rather than leaving it with us individually in some bar.

I'm not trying to sound like some kind of "swinger" advocate or something, but after all this crap we've been though, the clarity of "who" each of us are, the acknowledgment of our preferences and own limitations, I think we've learned to accept certain behaviors better without assigning broad meaning to them.

Just because your spouse won't have sex with you in the car doesn't mean they don't love, want, desire you. It doesn't mean they are LD and it doesn't mean they are broken or weird...they might just not like sex in the car. (Now this is a behavior where we have big difference in preference).

I'm in a phase where my psyche wants something. I have shared these wants with her. She claims she's unable to provided it. So what do I do? I pursue it elsewhere and share my experiences with my W. Some nights out I've had self-esteem issues, others I've felt great and we will discuss these in way similar to our therapy sessions. My W shares her insecurities and victories with me. None of this has to do with either us trying to get laid. But in a way we are going outside the marriage for something. But it's for something we both have agreed that we can't get within the marriage so we've moved the boundary a little. Does this make sense?

Boundaries are not fusion

I'm sorry if I gave that impression. I was saying that "expecting someone to feel the same way about something as you" IS fusion.

[NotATLDave]

Honey,

Cally's husband has a real live woman--that he is MARRIED to--and this is his preference.

I'm not sure how she should proceed from here but saying, "He'll do it if he wants to anyway" is not wise, imo, it is defeatist and detached.

Don't get me wrong...I probably didn't approach this thread with enough compassion for her situation...I'm sorry. Her situation sucks. If she is trying to connect with a husband who isn't putting any of his marbles into the "collective sex jar", then she needs to call him out on it.

I just want to share some of the things that are helping us now and help folks learn to get their mind in the "right place" before they attack. It must be something like "Remind him that a marriage has rules where the spouse gets the first right of refusal prior to autonomous behavior within the 4 areas of the marital system"...that's probably a pretty strong covenant (if I do say so myself ). After that, there are probably more specific boundaries based upon individual tolerances for certain behaviors, preferences, etc.

I just see so many guys getting their asses kicked because they looked at another woman or at some porn. Maybe I'm still traumatized by a college girlfriend who went on a rant for 12 hours because I glanced up at a Coors swimsuit billboard...that I represented the male objectification of women, etc. etc. By the time she was done generalizing this, I might as well have been Hitler. And I wasn't even noticing the women in the billboard...I was trying to figure out what typeface they used. Needless to say, her outbursts like that led to an early demise in the R. I don't want to see others make the same mistakes. It's very easy to validated by your friends when you say "I caught him talking to another woman at a bar" because these are (sorry for my homegrown nomenclature) "pop-culture boundaries".

If he still refuses, then I must confess that I really don't have any good advice other than (ooo sorry) "deal with it or leave".

[NotATLDave]

Julie,

THANK YOU for sort of validating me some. I think I have difficulty explaining things sometimes and it's great when someone helps.

You nailed it with the "socially acceptable" boundaries bit. I think that's what I'm getting at. I think when I said "I'm not trying to sound like some swinger" was my attempt to acknowledge that the freedoms we allow each other are probably going to be despised by most people.

[NotATLDave]

BTW....NOP,

In addition to what I said in this long post, I will also say this...

Of all the women I might meet in a bar (and trust me...it hasn't been many), how many of them would be able be as emotionally balanced and mature as my W when it comes to such tricky things...like dealing with wacky husband like myself. When I hear the crap that other people say about their relationships and spouses, I cringe over the thought of being married to someone like that. How many of these women share my sense of frugality like my W.

Yah, despite all the crap I give her for lacking passion, I have to say that I like the calm, non threatening, generally happy, stabile, grounded personality too - a trait that not many women (I've met) have. While I might fantasize about having a relationship with some nutty, unpredictable woman, I would never really want that. Have I shared this thought with my W? Yes. Did it threaten her? Nope. Because she is very happy with herself. Heck, she told me that she's attracted to nerdy Ward Cleaver types of guys but that she would be bored to tears. She loves the excitement I bring.

We talk about stuff like this now. We've both gotten more certain about "who" we each are. It's made the give-and-take more clear cut. This is what Schnarch talks about a lot. It makes me think twice now before giving her crap for not being just like me or reading my mind.



Dave (who maybe nuts but sometimes I think that maybe I only "think" I'm nuts more than I actually am).

[NOPkins]

Hi, Dave.

I was going to post to you point by point. I don't think you could 'hear' me, if I did. So, I am going to keep it very simple.

That little voice you are hearing is the only one not lying to you. You are off on a tangent, that will destroy your marriage.

Unless you change the dynamics of your relationship, one or both of you will have an affair within the next year. It will most likely be your wife. You think you could handle this. You will not be able to.

She can find a guy like you, a lot easier than you can find a girl like her.

I also take extreme issue with the both of you using other people for your personal games and gain. Bad form. It WILL bite you in the ass if you (both of you) continue.

-NOPkins-

[NotATLDave]

I don't think you could 'hear' me, if I did

Gee...thanks.

That little voice you are hearing is the only one not lying to you. You are off on a tangent, that will destroy your marriage.

I appreciate the dose of fear talk, but our results speak for themselves and my interest in this activity is waning. Secondly, this type of activity is not at the core of our existence...it has been very periodic..once every three months or so and happening less. I don't see it as a threat. I see it as phase that fostered introspection.

Unless you change the dynamics of your relationship, one or both of you will have an affair within the next year. It will most likely be your wife. You think you could handle this. You will not be able to.

How do you know this? Why do you think I won't be able to handle it? And why would you think it's going to be her? You seem to be making some broad assumptions. But I'll entertain this because I've thought through all these outcomes. Remember NOP, last year at time, I thought we'd be in divorce proceedings by now and I committed myself to taking some bold moves. I never asked for the separate rooms, the open marriage, or a separation. These were all possibilities...not for intended changes in her but for me to preserve my peace-of-mind. This has never been about the sex. It's been more about my feelings for her.

She can find a guy like you, a lot easier than you?

And why does that have any relevance to me? Her ability to attract others has no bearing on *me* whatsoever. If the marriage tanks, then good for her if she can find someone else quickly. Now don't get me wrong, it would really suck if she left without warning..especially after all of the work we've done. But it's a possibility that I've considered when I started this whole process...that the stress of change would make her run. Crap, the stress of change has nearly made me run a few times.

The reality is that we either choose to stay together or we don't and right now we choose to stay together, take it a day at a time, and see if we're growing closer or growing apart. So far we are growing closer. As I feel closer, I feel less compelled to act single. She claims she feels things are better too and has learned to open up more. Things are functioning exactly as Schnarch describes in PM. We've had growth cycles where we nearly flamed-out and moments of comfort-zone boredom. Right now we seem to be in a semi-comfort zone.

BTW, what's with the threats NOP? Why is this striking such a nerve with you?

I also take extreme issue with the both of you using other people for your personal games and gain.

Well, if you are referring to those guys who picked up the bar tab, one of my W's single friends went home with him...I don't feel too sorry for him. I've never done anything that overt, misleading, etc. I usually just try to have a normal conversation with people to get over my shyness and insecurity. And it's not strictly women. Most of these excursions have been groups of single people who invite me out to other clubs. My first "experiment" was also my last...I've found it much more gratifying to show myself as a confident, happily married guy than some weird dude with a tan line on his finger.

But unless there was some opportunity cost from them talking to me, I'm not sure if any damage was done. Now, as I write this, I DO realize how pathetic it is this I feel compelled to address my insecurity issues with other people...but most of the time, I'm just having a fun night out with folks. It's not as illicit as I might have portrayed it to be. I've also noticed that I'm much more relaxed when I'm 100% me - married with children and such. It's much more meaningful to be included with a group of strangers when there is clearly no motives by any of them (like seeing me as a potential mate).

And ya, my confidence *should* come from within but according to my C, I might never get over it and we (W and I) have to find ways to make it work just like people who need to be dominated (or something) to get aroused.

I guess you are trying to make point that I shouldn't be on this board, proselytizing "dangerous behaviors" such as this. I can see how it would be perceived as such. I can see certain personalities become addicted to it or increase the "dose". The opposite seems to be happening with us.