I was also reading excerpts from an online book today, called “Malignant Self-Love: Narcissism Revisited” by Sam Vaknin. Amazingly it has been written by a diagnosed and self confessed Narcissist.
I recognise too much in there to avoid the realisation that my H fits the pattern almost exactly, and I possibly fit the description of someone who feels attracted to Narcissists (the inverted Narcissist).
I have been thinking about the type of man I have always been attracted to and sometimes involved with, and while superficially they are not alike, they have all been what you might be describe as "particular".
This book also talks about how the Inverted Narcissist falls for Narcissists because it turns their world Technicolour, rather than dull grey. I have had 'dull' suitors in my time and have spurned them, one and all.
But from my readings so far, it seems that once a Narcissist, always one. There is NO WAY things will change. And while reading about it is pretty compelling and chillng, it also relieves a burden I have been carrying, for not being able to sustain or save my marriage.
I have always been aware of my H's characterstics and shortcomings for the most part, and thought they were not serious (enough) things to worry about. They did not include physical abuse and stuff like that. But they are things that will not allow a real and intimate relationship in the long term. I always imagined that somehow things would pan out, just somehow, anyhow.
When reading the words today, I got goosebumps at some of the things written, as the very same words and descriptions have come out of the mouth of H, about himself.
I feel some compassion for the man, but I know that that compassion will not be reciprocated. Because he is incapable of it. One of the things he despised his father for was sentimentality, yet H displays it in bucketfuls.
Here's a quote - " Narcissists are capable of sentimentality - but not of (experiencing) emotions
Here is something the guy says on his website about himself -
"I have no interest in intellectual stimulation by significant others (it is perceived by me as a threat). Significant others have very clear roles: accumulation and dispensation of past Primary Narcissistic Supply in order to regulate current NS. Nothing less but definitely nothing more. Proximity and intimacy breed contempt for reasons that I elucidate in my work. A process of devaluation is always in full operation.
All the above and a passive witness to my past grandiosity, a dispenser of accumulated NS, a punching bag for my rages, a co-dependent, a possession (though not prized but taken for granted) and much more. Being my partner is an ungrateful, FULL TIME, draining job ." (emphasis added)
It is interesting to me that the bad times increased around the time when H took up a line of work that I was already in.
More later...
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
Just one word of caution - ALL WASs look like they have these serious personality disorders when they are inhabited by the aliens. So I think, if you really want to figure out if he has an underlying personality disorder, you need to look at your distant past with him - NOT at his behaviors just prior to or during the affairs.
There is no doubt that my H is also going through some kind of Mid-life Crisis, but I am also looking at some of the character traits that H has displayed for as long as I have known him, and adding it all up.
I have always been aware of these traits - how could I not be - but I have discovered they are a group of behaviours that seem to fit the diagnosis of a Narcissist type of disorder. When I first came across the Passive Aggressive stuff, lots of it rang bells, but not all of it, so I was confused.
My sis has always referred to H as 'semi-detached' and not quite human in his level of detachment. I always thought this an exaggeration.
I guess even narcissists have mid-life crises?
I do worry about pigeonholing someone, but the alternative is banging your head on a brick wall and wondering why you are getting nowhere...
Plus, I do need to do the work to find out why I wound up with someone so incapable of so many things others take for granted. What did I find attractive about H? Why were the red flags not enough to put me off?
Stuff like that.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
I agree, I think there is value in trying to figure out - what is MLC and what are fundamental flaws in H you just overlooked? If he magically came out of his MLC, what exactly would you be getting - and would you want it now?
Me - I knew that under all the MLC craziness, there was still the basically good guy I had married. And although I am somewhat painfully more aware of his flaws now that I may have glossed over in the past, none of them are serious enough to change my feelings about him.
But when you talk about your H- it's hard to tell, did he use to be a good guy, or was he always self-centered and obnoxious? I guess one way to answer this is, what did other people think of him before the affairs? Did friends and family think he was great - or were they always troubled by him?
And yes, I think the bigger question is, what is it in you that you ignored the red flags, if they were there early in the R?
This info is eye opening. Did the info say if M to a man with this was doomed forever? (I hope not, since my H is a close match for this). Tough concept to understand you are never really in this mans world only an asset to dispose of (if I read all the info right).
Quote: I have always been aware of my H's characterstics and shortcomings for the most part, and thought they were not serious (enough) things to worry about. They did not include physical abuse and stuff like that. But they are things that will not allow a real and intimate relationship in the long term. I always imagined that somehow things would pan out, just somehow, anyhow.
The somehow just never happens though, does it? I'm in the midst of this as well... Just enuf to keep you around and hoping for change???
I appreciate you sharing this info. How do you DR this, or should you?
Quote: But when you talk about your H- it's hard to tell, did he use to be a good guy, or was he always self-centered and obnoxious? I guess one way to answer this is, what did other people think of him before the affairs? Did friends and family think he was great - or were they always troubled by him?
Good questions.
H is quite personable. He is intellegent. Attended one of the most famous universities in the world. Has read a lot (said he read War and Peace around age ten or eleven - that should tell you something about the emotional loneliness of his childhood, despite two parents, a sister and domestic servants...clues!) and is articulate. I was definitely attracted to his intellegence and articulacy.
We also shared two major interests - cycle touring (we used to go out on day long rides together in the beginning) and the area of my personal work, which at the time he was dabbling in as a hobby. And although he was not accomplished in it at the time, he could talk very intellegently about it.
None of these things are qualities of the heart though.
I could see that H was vulnerable - he had had a very peculiar background (his father and probably mother both severe narcissists), despite wealth, it was almost without love. The love came from his grandmother, who happened to be a (passive) nazi.
I think I reached out to H's neediness, for family, closeness, security etc, none of which he ever really had. But I was always puzzled at how little I got back, emotionally. The accumulated incidents over the years led me to believe (before the bomb etc) that should something serious ever happen to me - like I got wheelchair bound, for example - then H would not be there for me. As long as I was there for him, that was one thing, but he would not put himself out for me.
Around 1998 and onwards, H started getting interested in my line of work and took it up gradually, with my encouragment. He got serious about it through the years. He also got very grand and reffered to himself in glowing terms. I don't have the ability to lie through my teeth and heap (insincere) praise on someone when I don't feel it is deserved. Maybe H resented the fact that I was not his No.1 fan. I just didn't see the need for that role, as it seemed to be already occupied by H himself!
Ellie, I am sure you have seen a thread of grandiosity running through H from some of the things I have journalled here over the last year or more - referring to himself as an alpha male, his telling me "what he was prepared to do for me" soon after the bomb (it was a shock to him that the law thought differently), his admitting to me before Christmas in an email that his major error over the years was his "not being hard enough on me", and of course the famous round robin email to me and his two OW!
I think I confused being needed by H with being loved by him. They are two very different things. I am only just beginning to see that clearly. Even though I have known for a while that H had 'user' tenedencies. He has described a couple of his friends as cats, who only take, not give. But he is the biggest cat of them all.
Did my friends and family like him before all this happened? My sis always found him strange and a bit obnoxious, but was always polite - as she says, I had chosen to marry him and he was her bother in law.
After the bomb dropped, many of my friends said immediately - "It's his loss, not yours!" Of course, I thought they were being kind, but perhaps it is the truth. Some have confided that they never cared much for him, some said they saw him being cold or mean to me. Just little, but telling things.
Even H himself has said he knows he is not everybody's cup of tea. None of us are, but it is more pronounced with H - either people like him or they really, really don't.
Will continue later...
Livnlearn
PS I think there may be a fair few Narcissists among the WASs on this board. It may help you to try and figure out if your WAS fits the profile well, so you get an idea of what you are up against. And whether you want to continue bashing your head against a wall.
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
In the beginning of our relationship, H was fun and exciting. After we married, he was fun and exciting with other people but not with me. I always felt like he thought he was doing me some kind of favor by being married to me. Like I owed him something and I should just be happy that he tolerated me.
I gave and gave and rarely got anything back. The rare times he was giving emotionally was when he wanted something.
You have articulated this better than I can. H summed up our relationship a year ago. His idea of a relationship is someone gives the sh!t and someone takes the sh!t.
I saw all of these red flags before we married but I ignored them and I have no idea why. None of my friends liked him. My parents despised him. Perhaps I had a little us vs. them mentality?
I see so many similarities between our H's. They both have the attitude that the world revolves around them and we are just meant to serve them when they feel like letting us. They are obnoxious and self-centered.
When I look back at my marriage, H was truly awful to me. Not all of the time but the majority of the time. I spent most of my time walking on eggshells trying to please him and it never worked.
I don't know if your H was ever verbally abusive. Mine was. It didn't start until the last few years of our marriage. Before the name calling started he was condescending a lot of the time. The verbal abuse escalated when he thought he was losing control of me.
I highly doubt they will change. I found that the more I Dbed the worse he treated me. He saw me as a doormat. Has that been your experience?
I see some similarities between my H and what you are describing, although not to the same degree.
Since I discovered the A I have read many many books trying to figure out what made him tick, his personality and childhood issues, mlc issues, depression issues.
I finally just had to give up reading all those books about HIM and his issues and concentrate on my own stuff. Although they maybe made me see and understand him better they also made me want to change him or think that if he changed then everything would be all good. And once again I can't change him, can't count on his changing himself or even wanting to or seeing the need.
And then I end up wrestling with the idea, well when I married him he wasn't wonder man, is it fair to now superimpose my wants and desires on top of him? I am sure that he likewise had disappoints with me too. But the thing of it is that all of that was a lot easier to overlook when I was getting love and feeling loved. I have not really felt any of that in over 2 years now.
Quote: I don't know if your H was ever verbally abusive. Mine was. It didn't start until the last few years of our marriage. Before the name calling started he was condescending a lot of the time. The verbal abuse escalated when he thought he was losing control of me.
He started saying rude and mean and condescending things to me about a year or two before the bomb. (Before that he could be rude, but not as much or as often, at least to me.) And because I didn't like it, I would call him on it, but not quietly and firmly, but by flying off the handle. In fact most of the 'cazymaking' from my side was in reaction to H's blinding rudeness and lack of respect, his condescension. He used to say nothing, never apologise, just turn his back, or leave the room or house.
He supposedly 'made the decision to leave me' after the last such occasion.
I wasn't exactly enabling his rudeness, but I sure didn't know a better way to handle it.
I used to say such things as "I won't stand for this kind of thing forever" which from my side meant things had to change for the better, but from his side, apparently meant that I would leave him one day. Methinks that is when he decided to confide in OW1 all about our 'miserable' marriage, and then 'fall in love' with her.
And she, silly goat, should have known better! She was my friend, for God's sake, and I had confided to her certain things about my marriage and H, and we even compared notes about our selfish husbands! At least I wasn't stupid enough to think that a husband swap was the answer! Puke.
It is hiliarious that in her response to H's round robin email, she said that many people had told her they found H pompous, but she had alway defended him, saying that they didn't know the 'real' H. How she flattered herself that SHE had a handle on the REAL H! And then her receiving that open email to all three of 'his women' showed H up to her like she never had seen him before. Ha!
I have no doubt that right now OW2 is basking in the glory of being the favoured one of the three in H's round robin. Boy, is she riding for a fall. Good luck to her.
It is no accident, I suppose, that all three of us women had majorly disfunctional aspects to our upbringing. Perhaps we expect no better from our SOs.
The things is, I DO expect better. But perhaps that element of 'changing a guy for the better', from being hurt to wholeness, is the stupid delusion I had, though unconscious.
That is one of the reasons I think I stuck it out in this marriage. Along with taking my marriage vows seriously, not wanting D to have a broken family, being by nature a faithful person, and one who sticks at things. And genuinely believing that I loved my husband. But I guess it is like loving a cat, you can love it all you want, but that doesn't mean it will love you back.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
On Monday morning I emailed H to ask when D would be coming home again, as she starts school on Wednesday. I didn't take calls, as I just wanted time alone. H called and left a message on the answerphone, that D would be down that evening. Then he emailed the info. I acknowledged the email. He emailed again, to apologise for her coming down early as it was more conventient, liftwise.
That must be a first, emailing to apologise for something I have not even made a comment about!
I emailed back that it was OK.
Then he phoned again to apologise and explain that D had wet shoes and socks from playing in some melted snow.
D returned, reeking as usual of cigarette smoke, but happy. She had not done much homework at H's place. She finished it off here this morning.
This evening, H rang. First, he mentioned ordering a video for me, one that he was going to get me ages ago, but there was some problem about the format and its compatability with my player. Anyway, he said it was ordered, and would arrive in time for my birthday. Well, knock me down with a feather - he remembered that my birthday is coming up? I was wondering whether he would even notice.
So I thanked him for the kind thought.
Then he asked me about how long I had stayed with the friends in the hills. When I told him, he said, oh, I thought you would stay up the whole time, not just a couple of days. Again, why would he care???
Well folks, I have dropped the rope, but I will remain civil and pleasant to him, as I will have to deal with him whatever happens for the rest of my life. But he seems to be strangely solicitous, considering how he stomped off so angrily after the bank work.
Livnlearn
"The unexamined life is not worth living" - Socrates
