-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
ConfuseMe asked: --------- Why is it that men are expected to instintively know what it is that they want and when exactly it is that they want it? --------- CM. I am guessing, but I think women think they have been compromising their needs for a long time and basicall quit caring about the M. Some see things as "Its your turn to do all of the work."
If you work too hard you burn out. If you do all of the work your wife will not appreciate all of the work you did. Somehow you have get your W to participate in rebuilding the M.
When they see the H working on the M they think it is too little too late many times. I suspect there is a lot of resentment when they see the H working on the M and think you/me are just doing this long enough so they stay and once we see they are not leaving, we will go back to our old ways.
I know in my case, I hesitated to ask for things in the R until it got bad then I would confront my W, which led to "you never" and "you always" statements going back and forth.
From the little I have read of your posts, I see you trying to change W's opinion or actions. No matter how much you want, you can't change her. She has to see something she wants in you and "she" has to change.
So you being the happy man her family once knew is doing the right thing. It will take several months for your W's opinion about you to change. You can be a good man, a good dad, a good H, but do it for you, not her right now. "SHE" will "EVENTUALLY" SEE the light. You can't make her see the light.
I know the thought process. "If I do A she should do B. It should work that way but it doesn't.
Also asking for something without criticizing is difficult to do. Do you have something small that you want your W to do for you?
I am saying this because I think too many people wait until things are just right or something has to be a certain way to ask for something from a spouse. Maybe your W is waiting for some right time, and meanwhile she is aloof, afraid to ask for what she wants. When she does ask, she dumps everything on you she has been saving for the last 3 months. That is the problem with waiting for the right time.
Pick an item you want to work on with your W and post it here. Also post how you might talk about this problem with your W in concrete, measurable steps. Get some feedback and give it a try.
Quote: So, did you ask a question, or miss asking one?
What was the question missed?
Sorry no not really I think I was just venting a little. Just a little frustrated. Weekend with W seemed to cause more resentment from her. She told me after the fact that she felt that I was "acting" for her family. She also told me that it seemed to her that I was not allowing her to talk to any of her relatives without me "hovering". The true frustration comes from her apparently telling me that she needs time. I obvoiusly misunderstood what she meant by that, she felt she was saying she needed time with her relatives alone, but I took it as the general I need time alone. I apologized for misunderstanding what she said, and told her that I could not crawl inside her head and to understand her meaning. I requested that in the future she let me know that she feels im hovering (trying to help with the kids) and I will back off. This was not taken well either. So the ongoing frustration continues.
I am continuing to work on my PMA and self image. I hope one day she can take it for what its worth as opposed to perceiving that it is a holyier than tho attitude.
Man, confuseme, I hear what you're saying. Understand, there is no way you can know what is going on inside her head. If she chooses not to tell you, that's her choice. As long as you are not being intentionally dense (don't laugh, I've caught myself doing this), you can't expect to read her mind.
If my W said she needed "time," I, too, would interpret that as the ol' "time and space" statement. In other words, "time alone."
Some words of advice I often find myself chanting under my breath: 1. I will not participate in your being pissed-off at me. 2. Damned if I do, damned if I don't, so damned if I will.
and some recent suggestions from other board members about things to say to your SO: 1. "You won't tell me what's going on in your head, you won't tell me how you feel....you expect me to guess. You are willing to let me flounder away, THAT is not a very loving thing to do!" 2. "I am in need of some guidance on how to best show my love for you. I cannot read minds. If you choose not to help me out here, then you should expect to continue to feel unloved."
Thanks for the suggestions. Some good ones here. I like your "mantras" I think I need to adopt them as well.
Im a little gun shy on the asking what W needs to feel loved. I get more of the same from those ones "Ive told you over and over what it is I want (I want to be happy) so I'm not going to tell you again". Its a nasty little game that gets played here. Dont know about W but im tired of playing.
Mantra of the month "Continue to work on your PMA and self image and hope that it gets taken for what it is".
"Mantra of the month "Continue to work on your PMA and self image and hope that it gets taken for what it is"."
I have been reprimanded for that approach. Maybe it would be better to "Continue to work on your PMA and self image" and be sure that you take it for what it is. That is what I am struggling with, and it has been brought to my attention that I am being too concerned with reactions.
quote: ------------- Sorry no not really I think I was just venting a little. Just a little frustrated. Weekend with W seemed to cause more resentment from her. She told me after the fact that she felt that I was "acting" for her family. She also told me that it seemed to her that I was not allowing her to talk to any of her relatives without me "hovering". The true frustration comes from her apparently telling me that she needs time. I obvoiusly misunderstood what she meant by that, she felt she was saying she needed time with her relatives alone, but I took it as the general I need time alone. I apologized for misunderstanding what she said, and told her that I could not crawl inside her head and to understand her meaning. I requested that in the future she let me know that she feels im hovering (trying to help with the kids) and I will back off. This was not taken well either. So the ongoing frustration continues. -------------
Here is the deal. If your wife is wayward, then your being there upset her plans. Her plans could have included any of the following.
1) She might have wanted for her folks to get used to you not being around. Instead, they had opportunity to see a good side of you.
2) She might have planned to introduce your kids and her folks to a new 'friend'.
3) She might feel that your 'hovering' is a needy behavior.
4) She might not like your very much right now, and your presence irritates her, so she accuses you of 'hovering'.
Regardless of what tack you take, you interfered with her plans. Since you think she may be wayward, I would consider your weekend an incredible success.
A wayward spouse does not want to see the other spouse 'fix' their issues, especially after the wayward spouse has chosen the cowards way out of the marriage.
For, you, I recommend that you don't 'get in her face' and that you become the best Dad anyone has ever had. You TAKE THE LEAD and invite your wife along to the activities YOU have planned for your kids. Get involved with your family. DO NOT ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE PUSHED OUT.
I haven't had much time to study your situation. Unfortunately, my time is even more limited now. I do want to leave you with this thought.
My initial reactions to what you wrote here, told me that your involvement in your family is something of an afterthought, previously lead mostly by your wife. If that observation is correct, and again, I have not had time to really study your situation, then I would strongly suggest that you address it now.
Your children need a hero - a father. All the politically correct banter and gender non-specifics be damned; children need a strong father.
As for your wife needing space, you can do that by not being grabby/needy/touchy/feely. I would encourage you NOT to give her space in the form of bars and extended nights out 'with the girls' right now. Others here won't like this advice, but I am telling you, that while you can't control her, your approval of her actions that may very well undermine the marriage right now. That is not recommended.
In simple terms. Your wife appears to be looking outside of your marriage to get her 'needs' met. Don't encourage that. Don't facilitate it. If she needs space, you give it to her by improving your interaction with her.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I think im in the same boat. Its tough to make a change based on your personal goals and not hope for some reaction / change from your spouse. I gotta agree tho it is important to make the change and expect no acknoledgement of any kind. Actually the changes I make lately seem to have an adverse effect but I think in the long run things gotta get better. They cant get much worse (I hope).
Ive read you stich and feel for ya. You hang in there too buddy. The snow is melting and the world will begin to look like a better place soon..
Alot of good comments here. Thanks. I think that W was trying to get her family used to me not being around. I still dont think there is anyone else involved currently.
Had a couple convos with W the past few days. They continue to be rather heated. I think I need to find some change I can make in these convos. Escilation seems to be the norm in these dicussions.
Last few were about W feeling that I am acting like "pie in the sky" and "over the top" as far as how I have been comming accross. I said that it is better to be happy than to be sad, depressed and angry. She agreed but said that its a little much to take, acting like everything is great in our lives. Also she continues to tall me that I come accross as holier than tho and that she feels like Im saying everything she does is wrong. I think I need to stop talking about what I am doing with my life and to try and listen better when she vents. I think validating her feelings and repeating back to her what she is saying may help. Not sure but at least its something to try.
I sent her flowers to the office on Monday, that went over like a bag of wet cement. She said they were very pretty, but, (always a but) we cant afford them, I said we can not afford not to (spend money on her and try to get R back). W told me that she had two comments from co workers. First, "it must be nice to have money to burn on flowers (I sent flowers to her about three weeks ago), second was, is your hubby trying to mark his territory? The second comment seemed rather strange to me. Another one of those things to put in the back of my head as far as keeping my eyes open.
The over riding themne in our latest convos seems to be "you tell me you have changed but I dont see any of it". Response to her is two pronged. First she continues to tell me that she is happy with herself, so I explain that statement means to me that there is nothing she needs to change about how she deals with our R or anything else, so to that end that is why I ask her what it is she is looking for from me. Still no answers, the only answer I get is "I am not going to tell you what you need to do minute by minute".
Second one is I seem to have to restate the small changes that I have made (keeping house clean, better R with kids, trying to deal with finances (to that end she finally got a company CC but she still has to submit expenses and pay the bill herself, this is the standard for all employees at her Co.). She reluctantly acknoledges these items. I told her that change is something that is a slow evolution, and that if there is something specific that she wants me to work on then she needs to tall me. There is no way I can crawl inside her head to find out what it is she is expecting. I Also said that it seemed that she is looking for some large grandious change that will happen overnight so that she will sit up and take notice (A little venting there that in hind site maybe I need to stifle those things).
She does like to repeat that I have told her I have changed in the past but nothing seems to last, so she is (justifyably) sceptical.
The other item W brings up is that I am a product of my environment and that is ultimately who I will be (freudian speaks from her T im sure). She tried to imply that I can never change and that I need to accept that. I had to let her know that it is nice to know where you come from but that doesnt mean that change from that starting point is not possible.
I think I NEED to avoid these convos if at all possible, nothing good ever seems to come out of them. I just find it tough and am not sure how to avoid them without making W feel like Im ignoring her and her feelings. I think I need to stifle the defense instinct and try to work on validating her feelings and statments.
New goals 1. Have a convo that ends without anamosity on both sides. 2. Stay consistantly up in the face of her animostiy. 3. Spend more time taking kids out to fun places. 4. Laugh at least once a day. 5. Notice the little things W does (compliments need to be specific and well meant).
Going to see a C today (new one) this time I did a little research before hand to ensure he is not a freudian and is pro marriage. I hope this one works out.
I need to get back on the PMA (fell down for a day) and continue to work on my finances.
Thanks for the support from everyone here. Not sure If I could make it without it. It is truly appreciated.
Quote: New goals 1. Have a convo that ends without anamosity on both sides. 2. Stay consistantly up in the face of her animostiy. 3. Spend more time taking kids out to fun places. 4. Laugh at least once a day. 5. Notice the little things W does (compliments need to be specific and well meant).
1. You have no control over her response. It's pretty much a given that she isn't going to be happy initially with any attempt you make at conversations geared to address the issues in the marriage. In fact, that will probably be her response to any conversation at all, no matter how innocuous.
2. I don't know that staying "up" is either healthy or helpful. Someone attempting an ongoing display of "happy brightness" (which may not be what you mean, but is how I understood it), in the midst of catastrophe is going to be irritating. If by "up", you mean something of a strong, calm resolve to not be drawn into angry arguments or to wallow in wells of depression - then that is the right note to strike, IMO.
3&4. Seeking moments of joy is good. Spending time with kids is great. Consider the possibility that kids don't always have to be entertained in order to spend time with dad. It could be as simple as inviting them to ride with you while running errands, walking around the neighborhood, working on a project together.
5. Don't go overboard digging for compliments on small things. If you're talking about those "honey, that was great" sorts of things. I think there is a deep well of need within all of us that wants to be appreciated - that's kinda different, IMO, from compliments. And they need to be real, not some flowery bs pulled for the moment. Compliments to me, tend to be related to an event or occurance. Appreciation is more of an acknowledgement of the person as a whole. Details available, if I'm not being clear.
